Are YOU teaching the RIGHT Gospel????

[Christine]

Are YOU teaching the right gospel?

Scripture Reading: Romans 15:8



Many speak of "preaching the gospel," but all too few spend much time identifying which gospel they have in mind. The reason for this is because a lot of folks believe there is only one gospel in the Bible. But in today's test, Paul identifies two gospels: "the gospel of the uncircumcision" and "the gospel of the circumcision" (Galatians 2:7).

The gospel of the circumcision was God's good news for His covenant people, Israel.

The most common name for this gospel is "the gospel of the kingdom," and it is the message Christ preached while He was on earth (Matthew 4:23). It is known as the gospel of the kingdom because it offered Israel the prophesied kingdom of God upon the earth if only they would repent. Of course, Israel as a whole did not repent in the time of Christ and the apostles, therefore, the offer of this kingdom is presently being postponed until this dispensation of grace is finished.

The gospel of the uncircumcision is God's good news for this dispensation.

It is also known as "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24), and was committed unto the Apostle Paul. The reason it is designated the gospel of the uncircumcision is because it offers salvation by grace through faith without any religious ceremonies. The gospel of the kingdom required law-keeping (Matthew 19:17), repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38), but the gospel of grace requires only faith (Ephesians 2:8,9).

The gospel of the grace of God is summarized in I Corinthians 15:1-4. We must believe that "Christ died for our sins...that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day."
 
   

[vanschoonoven]

I have been a believer, since about age 15, I believed the gospel that saves according to I Cor 15.  I have only been a "grace" believer for about 4 years.

I would consider myself to be a mid-acts dispensationalist, and hold to the mystery as it was given to the apostle Paul, as mentioned in Eph 3, as well as other places.

However, I would have some serious questions about some of your statements concerning the gospel, or at least I need some more information.  Please consider what I am going to say carefully, it is not meant to be mean spirited, I know it will put some things in a different light then what you normal see, but please consider if it is based on the word rightly divided!

Here is my understanding of the gospel that saves.

I believe the word gospel, is greatly misunderstood, in fact there are many different gospels.  Since gospel actually just means good news, we can only understand what the good news is by reading the context the word gospel is placed in.

For example the gospel (good news) that saves is contained in I Cor 15: 1-11.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
1Co 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

According to this passage the gospel that saves which has to do with the death, burial and resurrection was preached by Paul and the other apostles.  This is important to see!

However, the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumcision are two different gospels.  Both contain the gospel that saves, but one was geared towards Israel and the Kingdom and the other was geared to the body of Christ.  That made these two gospels very different indeed!  Even though both contained the gospel that saved...the fact of the death burial and resurrection of Christ for our salvation. 

The gospel of the uncircumcision actually destroyed the hope of the gospel of the circumcision.  The gospel of the circumcision reflected a restored Israel, with the gentiles being brought to Christ through Israel, the Gospel of the uncircumcision reflected a fallen Israel, being set aside and no longer in her position as a favored nation, but rather all the nations including Israel being fellow heirs and more...Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,.

This gospel of the uncircumcision was the cause of Paul's problems with Peter and the Jews as a whole.

If we look closely at Romans 1, we see that Paul was called to the gospel that saves and that it was the gospel that the prophets had spoken about.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
Rom 1:2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
Rom 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

This gospel that saves was not the mystery it was also preached by Peter and other apostles it was the gospel that was promised by the prophets.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
1Pe 1:7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen[1] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
1Pe 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us[2] they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.

It was not the gospel that saves that was the difference between Paul and Peter, but it was rather that Paul preached that gospel, according to the mystery that had been kept secret until it was revealed to Paul.

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
Rom 16:26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
Rom 16:27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.[6]

The gospel that Paul refers to in verse 25 as my gospel is discribed in Chapter 1 verses 3-4 it was the gospel the prophets had recorded, that gospel could not and was not the mystery, it was the gospel the Prophets had spoken of, the mystery was something else and Paul says he was preaching the gospel according to the revelation of the mystery.  That mystery is found in Eph 3 and Col 1.  This is the gospel of the uncircumcision, it is the preaching of the gospel that saves according to the mystery.

People to this day still get saved beause they believed the gospel that saves, but they know nothing of the gospel that saves, being preached according to the mystery.  They are still saved, but they do not understand the gospel of the uncircumcision.  They know nothing about the differences between what Paul preached and what the 12 preached.  They are confused about the body of Christ, and Israel. They are in many ways still tied to Israel's law, even though God does not see them that way.

I look forward to your comments, and I hope this is not to confrontational, but rather I hope it makes us both look at what the scriptures teach more carefully,  I am looking forward to seeing your usage of the scriptures to demonstrate what you mean. I want you to know I am open to what the scriptures teach!

In Christ,

Jim

[Christine]

Jim said: "According to this passage the gospel that saves which has to do with the death, burial and resurrection was preached by Paul and the other apostles.  This is important to see!"

Hi Jim and Welcome to the Forum!


I am going to tackle your concerns one item at a time, beginning with a foundation. I thank you for your post and the spirit in which it was written, but I see some faulty assumptions being made which lead to faulty conclusions. I am nowhere near as eloquent or articulate as you obviously are, however I DO know what the scripture teaches, and will attempt to address the discrepancies I see in the  conclusions you have drawn in a simple, straight forward manner. I hope this doesn't insult you, but I don't know how else to do it as you covered alot of ground in one post.

First, I would like to ask why you think that the other apostles preached the death, burial and resurrection as the means of salvation, when its clear from scripture that they did NOT. Where do you get this concept?

The Cross was NOT good news as preached by Peter and the 12, but a murder endictment to the Nation Israel.

Until we look at THAT....and realize that the gospel they preached WAS indeed different, then we cannot go on to the other issues.

Please take a look at the section entitled "THINGS THAT DIFFER ARE NOT THE SAME" where the scriptural EVIDENCE for the vast DIFFERENCES in the actual gospel that WAS preached are listed. After you have studied these lists...let's talk again. Is that fair?

Grace and Peace

Addition: Here is one of the specific posts that deals with this issue. I repost it here for your reading.

The gospel we preach is VERY important...because if we preach a gospel that is NOT "OUR" good news... souls will stay lost.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people...... HERE we see Christ preached the 'gospel of the kingdom'. Well, Christ had NOT yet even died on the cross so He was not preaching "I died for your sins, was buried, and rose again for your justification",  was he???

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,..... HERE again in another record we see Jesus preaching the gospel of the kingdom. And it is not his death, burial, and resurrection.


When Peter preached on the day of pentecost in Acts 2, he preached a murder indictment. His audience was men of Israel.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ((((((by WICKED hands have crucified and slain..... now does that sound like he's preaching the GLORY OF THE CROSS?))))

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them (and THIS is the gospel that he preached) , Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ((((please read the entire second chapter of acts to get the full context)))) This is the gospel of the KINGDOM/for the nation ISRAEL...not for we the Body of Christ.

Peter tells them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins..... is this the same message we see Paul preaching as the gospel of OUR salvation?

This gospel that Peter preached was called the "gospel of the circumcision", or the "kingdom gospel"...these phrases identified this particular "good news' as being to the NATION OF ISRAEL alone. It is with this NATION that God had a covenant...and the OLD and NEW covenant He made with HER has nothing to do with the "gospel of the GRACE of God " that Paul ushered in in Acts 9. God made the NEW COVENANT with the same folks he made the OLD COVENANT with (see Jer. 31: 31 for proof!)

Is this the same as Christ died for your sins, was buried, and rose again for your justification? (Take note in Acts 2, Peter said Christ was to be raised to sit on David's throne, and David never HAD a THRONE IN HEAVEN, his throne was to be ON THE EARTH.... Paul tells us Christ was raised for our justification, verses following)

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

It's important to recognize which gospel we are to preach because souls are at stake. If you go around mixing the gospels, adding to the simplicity of the FACT that Christ paid the entire debt and penalty for your sin and thinking that you can do something to add to the completeness of his payment, it could cost you eternity.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Timothy 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. (Whose trust? Peters or Pauls???)

[Christine]

Dear Jim:

Here is information to deal with the issue of whether or not the 12 even understood the purpose of the Cross:


Lets see if the 12 understood what Jesus was going to accomplish on the Cross.


PETER AND PAUL DID NOT
PREACH THE SAME MESSAGE

Romans 16:25-26
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

PETER from the first believed in the Lord Jesus Christ BUT understood nothing of the cross


Matthew 16:16-22 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Matthew 17:22-23 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: 23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Mark 9:31-32
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke 9:43-45 And they were all amazed at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, 44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

PAUL had been a blasphemer BUT he was the last to see Christ and first to know of the mystery

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

[MacTastic]

I look forward to your comments, and I hope this is not to confrontational, but rather I hope it makes us both look at what the scriptures teach more carefully,  I am looking forward to seeing your usage of the scriptures to demonstrate what you mean. I want you to know I am open to what the scriptures teach!

In Christ,

Jim

Hey Jim, welcome!

It's not too confrontational at all, as that's not what we're really all about. So no worries. 

You use the term "gospel that saves" a few times. Is there a gospel that doesn't save? And no, my query is not rhetorical.

According to this passage [I Cor. 15:1-11] the gospel that saves which has to do with the death, burial and resurrection was preached by Paul and the other apostles.

No sir. It was not.

I could agree that Paul, Barnabas and Titus were preaching Paul's gospel (the gospel of grace, and that Barnabas and Titus of necessity learned it from Paul), but it's not like we have Peter, James and John proclaiming the gospel Paul uttered. If you meant that, I must disagree.

If we look closely at Romans 1, we see that Paul was called to the gospel that saves and that it was the gospel that the prophets had spoken about.

There wasn't a prophet on the planet that had the slightest inkling of what Paul put forth. Nary a one.

Please realize this: had any of the prophets known of it, it wouldn't have been a mystery. It would have been prophecy. More to the point, Paul preached a heretofore unknown message, a new gospel. He didn't read about it or glean it from the Scripture. He didn't hear tell of it by the "pillars." It wasn't a gospel "after men" like that and he didn't confer with anybody about it. Paul's gospel was given him by direct revelation. Jesus Himself told Paul what to say. He explained to Paul how it fit and how it applied and what it changed.

Galatians 1:11-12

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

None of the prophets knew about this gospel. If they did, Jesus need not have revealed it to Paul. I labor the point, but it was an entirely novel disclosure.

Paul's gospel is a revelation that is uniquely his--not by means of an owner. Jesus entrusted Paul with its stewardship (I Cor. 4:1,2). It was but one of several mysteries believers are called to be stewards of.
Pssst... don't tell the Baptists, they think it's all about money. :-)

This gospel of the uncircumcision was the cause of Paul's problems with Peter and the Jews as a whole.

I'm not picking at nits, but actually, Paul didn't have the problems. The other boys did. The Jews as a whole had big time problems with the content of Paul's good news. After all, he tossed the rite of circumcision to the curb. (Moses tried that and almost died.) Jesus hadn't explained to Peter or any of the other Apostles the change in plans, only to Paul. It's that revelation-thing, again.

It was not the gospel that saves that was the difference between Paul and Peter, but it was rather that Paul preached that gospel, according to the mystery  that had been kept secret until it was revealed to Paul.

Jim, we can split frogs hair only so fine. Time for a new axe. Paul and Peter did not preach the same message. Their gospels did not have the same content. You attribute Paul's preaching of the gospel according to the mystery as if he somehow preached differently than Peter did. When Paul states he preached the gospel according to the mystery, he indicates he preached a gospel the content of which was, until that point, a mystery, hidden. Jesus revealed it to Paul. Paul took it to the Gentiles. (And functionally, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The curtain has been torn.)

Peter preached the law. Peter did not preach a message of grace. (Peter might use the word "grace" in his writings, but that does not make his message less law-keeping.) Jesus preached the law. Remember the rich young ruler?

Paul preached grace. No circumcision. We see Pete remitting--not forgiving--sin (he had that authority as an Apostle, by the way) and declaring an "inheritance" that "will be revealed" (future tense). But the man on the road to Damascus preached nothing of the sort. His gospel indicates a right-now salvation, not something to look forward to one day to be inherited, or which will be revealed. Pete says repent. He heals you. Paul says trust. And he'll leave you sick. It's a different program, a change in plans, and a gospel message as different as these two men are.

[vanschoonoven]

MacTastic and Christine,

I am sure it is my fault, but neither of you have understood my point, or actually commented about the verses I mentioned.  You think I am saying something that I am not saying.

I think you need to read my post again, and check out the scriptures that I used, the only real way to go forward is to show me where I went off from what those scriptures taught.

Please understand one thing' I did not say that Jesus taught about the death, burial and resurrection for salvation. The kingdom message was not the same before the cross as it was after the cross. I did not say the 12 taught the mystery, they did not.

Concerning MacTastic's question, is there good news that is not the good news that saves, of course there is, many of God's teachings are Good news but they do not all deal with the issue of what you must believe to be saved.  The gospel that saves is taken from I Cor. 15.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

This was the good news that they were saved by and it is clearly listed.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

This is not a gospel that contains any thing concerning the mystery it is a gospel that was in the OT scriptures.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
Rom 1:2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
Rom 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

This is the gospel that saves that Peter preached...1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[5] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Please notice what this verse states:
1Co 15:11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.  Who do you think the they were???

Please look carefully, do you see any mention of the mystery in those verses???

According to Paul the mystery is:

Eph 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
Eph 3:5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

Paul taught the same gospel that saves, but added to that was the gospel of the mystery, they are two different things.  The other apostles taught the gospel that saves but also the gospel of the Kingdom. 

Paul actually makes it clear he was teaching the gospel that saves, according the the mystery.

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel (see Romans 1:1-4)and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began(see Eph 3:1-7)
Rom 16:26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
Rom 16:27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

I hope to hear your comments on just this much, but please read my first post over.

In Christ,

Jim

[BOC560]

Well Jim,
  I have gone back and carefully read all that each post in this thread contained and after having done so, have arrived at this conclusion:

It seems that you are relentlessly beating fine points to death in an effort to establish … (what ?).  I have come across some “Acts 28” theologians that have used similar arguments in an effort to establish further divisions where God clearly has placed none.  Their ambition for doing so has always left me wondering.  There is certainly an abundance of scripture that exhaustive study could reveal some varied evaluations, but I believe the significant divisions have well been established.

Was the Kingdom “gospel that saved” Israel (the gospel of the circumcision) changed after the cross?  Well, only to the extent that they were looking back at the cross and they were able to retrospectively see the connection to the “suffering Messiah” in Isaiah 53.  Like we are always told, hindsight is 20/20.  It remains that the mention of Peter and the other eleven apostles along with their ministry to Israel fade from the scriptures as we progress through the book of Acts.

I believe it would be much better if we, who are the Body of Christ could expend our energies in an attempt to make known the mystery.  The theologians and the most prominent “Christian” preachers don’t have a clue about the most basic aspects of the bible they assert to champion.  We need to proclaim the basics more than we need to split hairs on relatively insignificant matters.  Of course, I’ve always been a sort of “meat and potatoes” kind of guy.



BOC560, Johnny

[Christine]

Dear Jim,

I'm sorry, but I really fail to SEE your point. I have always been the kind of person who sincerely tries to simplify things so that everyday folks such as myself CAN and DO understand what is being communicated. It has been a goal of mine to follow God in simplifying my means of communicating so that it doesn't actually CONFUSE others rather than CLARIFY the real issues.

I will have to respectfully "BOW OUT" of this one, as I truly do not understand the points you are making, or trying to get across.

Grace and Peace

[vanschoonoven]

BOC560, I am not sure why you brought up Acts 28 believers, but I will state it as plainly as possible, I am not an Acts 28 believer.   Based on the scriptures I hold to a mid-acts point of view, I believe that Paul was given the revelation of the mystery, and that he started preaching the gospel about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins, according to the mystery from the very start of his ministry, although, he kept getting more and more revelation about the mystery as time went on.

You said:

It seems that you are relentlessly beating fine points to death in an effort to establish … (what ?).

 

To see exactly what the scriptures teach about the gospel that saves and the mystery!!!

2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If I am relentlessly beating the fine points to death, it is because those points are in the scriptures and they are important.

I was an Acts 2 believer for over 30 years, I did not pay attention to what the scriptures said, but instead had many pre-suppositions about what the word taught, most of these were the teaching of men rather than what the scriptures actually taught.  I have a much greater respect for what the word teaches now, and I will attempt to use the scriptures as a base for what I believe, and conform my view to the scriptures instead of the other way around, I don't see anything wrong with that!

You said:

There is certainly an abundance of scripture that exhaustive study could reveal some varied evaluations, but I believe the significant divisions have well been established.

If that is true, than why are there not more comments dealing with the verses that I have mentioned concerning the gospel that saves and how it was the gospel spoken of as being promised by the prophets, and how Paul made a claim that he preached and so did the other apostles in I Cor 15:11 and that in Peter's writings we find Peter declaring this same gospel? If these things are well established, you should be able to demonstrate to me what these scriptures teach! I will pay attention to the scriptures!

But isn't it interesting that the one of the clearest passages about the gospel that saves and the mystery, states that Paul preached this gospel according to the mystery. (Rom 16;25-27)  And when we go look up the mystery it clearly states what the mystery is and it does not state anything about the death, burial and resurrection, instead it says the mystery is
:
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

or

Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which[4] is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the purpose of the form was to search out the scriptures with other believers, so that we would all better understand what God has revealed.  To help us all be built up in Christ!  And I thought this topic was dedicated to a better understanding of what the gospel is that leads to salvation, to make sure we are preaching the right gospel, and hopefully we will preach it according to the mystery instead, of the way it is preached by so many "churches" according to some kind of mixed kingdom gospel.  

This is my desire that we understand that there are many "good news" in the scriptures and that we know the differences between them. Good news that saves...is the good news that if you believe it you are saved.  The good news of the uncircumcised is the good news that saves plus the good news of the mystery!  The good news of the circumcised is the good news that saves plust the good news about the kingdom.

Paul taught the good news that saves according to the mystery, that is why there was such a conflict with him and Israel, they could not understand how this could be true, even for Peter it was hard to understand!

 2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

You also said:

 

We need to proclaim the basics more than we need to split hairs on relatively insignificant matters.  Of course, I’ve always been a sort of “meat and potatoes” kind of guy.

Actually I thought I was too!   In fact in the last 3 years I personally have seen around 40 believers understand the grace message for the first time, I have seen them for the first time come to understand that what Paul preached was different than what the 12 preached. They now share the the good news that saves according to the mystery!

I have also personally seen 3 people believe in Christ as their savior...I Cor 15:1-11.

I have seen 3 pastors that were Acts 2 pastors change to a mid-Acts position.

There are now 3 home fellowship groups (churches) that have been planted in an area that three years ago there were no Mid-acts, rightly dividing fellowships.  I am about to go out to start another home church.  And I have been asked to teach these truths to a Seventh Day Adventist Church and have been doing that! The pastor is very close to accepting a grace position. To me preaching the gospel according to the revelation of the mystery changes peoples lives!  I have seen this in the last 3 years very clearly.  If we present the scriptures clearly God uses them to draw others to Himself, both unbelievers and believers!

This is only a few of the things that I personally have seen God do in the last 3 years, many others are also Mid-acts believers through the witness of those that I have seen come to these truths, and at least 10 others have believed in Christ through others that I have seen come to know these truths. God is building His body!

However, if we go to a Acts 2 believer and tell him that the gospel that saves is the mystery, when in fact the scriptures show it was not. (Romans 1) We are preaching confusion and that person may never listen to what the mystery really was.  If we deny that Peter taught and understood the gospel that saves about the death, burial and resurrection, we are again preaching confusion. 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[5] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

What Peter did not teach was the gospel that saves according to the mystery!  An Acts 2 believer can see that Peter taught that Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit!  If we try to teach an Acts 2 believer that this was the mystery that was kept hidden, that only Paul preached, he is not going to believe us.  We must be careful and search the scriptures and let them speak for themselves.  Peter never preached or even mentions the the mystery...Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

These things become even more important when you are sitting down with a pastor that reads and understands the Greek texts, because these truths are very clear in the Greek, and if we are not clear on these things they will not listen!

To me this is a meat and potatos kind of guy.  Keeping things centered on the word of God, and on Christ!

In Christ,

Jim

[Christine]

The RIGHT Gospel for today is ONLY found in the epistles of Paul. It is called "the gospel of OUR salvation." While Peter knew about Christs death, burial and resurrection, he WAS a minister to the Circumcision and did NOT preach the DBR as the means of salvation to those with  whom he limited his preaching. He preached the law of Moses and a KINGDOM gospel.

The information given to Paul contains fourteen doctrines NOT FOUND anywhere else in the scriptures. It is UNSEARCHABLE, or UNTRACEABLE in the OT or prophetic books.

We must be careful NOT to cloud the "simplicity that is IN CHRIST"....yes?

The gospel Peter preached is a gospel of a different kind...NOT a false gospel by any means, but simply not OUR gospel.

[vanschoonoven]

Christine, what a great name!  I am sure that you believe the scriptures must be the source of our beliefs.  That is exactly what I believe.  If you notice when I said that Peter did preach the gospel that saves, I did not just throw that out there, but showed where Paul confirmed that he and "they" the 12 preached the same gospel. I Cor 15:11

I also showed you a place where Peter himself proclaimed this same gospel.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Your response was:

While Peter knew about Christs death, burial and resurrection, he WAS a minister to the Circumcision and did NOT preach the DBR as the means of salvation to those with  whom he limited his preaching.

This is not a biblical answer to these verses, it is an opinion, and is not taking into account what these scriptures and other scriptures say about what Peter did preach.

I have to ask, have you never noticed what these verses are teaching?  Are you confusing the gospel that saves with the mystery? They are not the same the gospel that saves was the subject of the OT prophets it was the gospel that Paul was set aside for, it states this in Romans 1:1-4. Paul was also set aside for the revelation of the mystery, but that is in another book.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
Rom 1:2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
Rom 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

The mystery on the other hand was something not known, until it was revealed to Paul, it was hidden!  It was not the subject of the prophets, it is a good news not about salvation, but about a new group of believers!

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world beganRom 16:26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--

Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--
Eph 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
Eph 3:3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,
Eph 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),
Eph 3:5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
Eph 3:7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

How could the gospel that Paul was set apart for as mentioned in Romans 1 be a subject of the prophets and at the same time been kept hidden?  It could not be both ways.  In fact it is not both ways the gospel that saves is the subject of the prophets, and the mystery, which is a different good news,  (to the gentiles) was what had been kept hidden.

You are right, we must not cloud the simplicity that is in Christ, and the way to cloud that, is by not knowing what the scriptures are teaching. That is why we must be tied to what the scriptures teach and not the traditions of men.

I am not saying there is any other gospel that we can be saved by other than that which is called the gospel that saves as listed in I Cor 15. but rather I am saying a person that believes that is saved whether or not he knows about the mystery.

I know of very few people that knew the mystery before they got saved.  You do not have to know the mystery to be saved, you must believe in the death, burial and resurrection for your sins to be saved!  If this is not true than there are no believers except for those that know the mystery first, and since the mystery is a recently rediscovered truth (since Darby) that would mean hardy any one was saved from about Paul's time until the time of Darby.  Luther for example would not be saved nor would hardly any other protestants, until Darby.

Do you know believers, that do not know and understand the mystery?  If you do then you can see the two things are not the same. Those that believe in what Christ did for their sins, are placed into the body of Christ, no matter how ignorant they are about the mystery that explaines what happens to believers in this dispensation.

I understand, if you do not want to discuss this any more, but if you do we should keep it scriptural.  If we disagree on what the scriptures are teaching that is one thing, this happens, but we should at least use the scriptures to demonstrate our views.

In Christ,

Jim

[Christine]

You are right, we must not cloud the simplicity that is in Christ, and the way to cloud that, is by not knowing what the scriptures are teaching. That is why we must be tied to what the scriptures teach and not the traditions of men.

I am not saying there is any other gospel that we can be saved by other than that which is called the gospel that saves as listed in I Cor 15. but rather I am saying a person that believes that is saved whether or not he knows about the mystery.

I know of very few people that knew the mystery before they got saved.  You do not have to know the mystery to be saved, you must believe in the death, burial and resurrection for your sins to be saved! If this is not true than there are no believers except for those that know the mystery first, and since the mystery is a recently rediscovered truth (since Darby) that would mean hardy any one was saved from about Paul's time until the time of Darby.  Luther for example would not be saved nor would hardly any other protestants, until Darby.

Do you know believers, that do not know and understand the mystery?  If you do then you can see the two things are not the same. Those that believe in what Christ did for their sins, are placed into the body of Christ, no matter how ignorant they are about the mystery that explaines what happens to believers in this dispensation.

I understand, if you do not want to discuss this any more, but if you do we should keep it scriptural.  If we disagree on what the scriptures are teaching that is one thing, this happens, but we should at least use the scriptures to demonstrate our views.

In Christ,

Jiim

Ok, now this I understand. Correct, you can be saved and NOT know the Mystery truths. I am one who was saved for over 25 yrs but who wasn't aware of the MYSTERY TRUTHS.

It is NOT however, the same gospel. Thats what I think is confusing here. Peter didn't teach the DBR as the means of salvation to the Jew or anyone else. He was a preacher to the Circumcision and remained so. (For Confirmation of this statement, please check out the conversation at the Jerusalem Council where Paul was to preach to the heathen/gentiles and peter was to preach to the circumcision.) Peter understood what Paul taught, but he preached the Kingdom gospel all the way.

So, I am in agreement that many are saved who don't realize that the gospel they believed is found ONLY in Paul's epistles. No problem there.

And I DO think I have been scriptural, as well as being dispensational; but thanks for the caution!

[MacTastic]

Your response was:

While Peter knew about Christs death, burial and resurrection, he WAS a minister to the Circumcision and did NOT preach the DBR as the means of salvation to those with  whom he limited his preaching.

This is not a biblical answer to these verses, it is an opinion, and is not taking into account what these scriptures and other scriptures say about what Peter did preach.

Well, no Jim, it's actually more like a reiteration, than an opinion. Christine was reiterating her previous posts and replies to you, posts which contained copious amounts of scripture. (Not, by the way, that you've seemed to notice.)

Jim, what is your gospel? When you meet someone and share the gospel, what do you tell 'em?

[MacTastic]

These things become even more important when you are sitting down with a pastor that reads and understands the Greek texts, because these truths are very clear in the Greek, and if we are not clear on these things they will not listen!

Which Greek-language texts do you refer to?

[Christine]

Jim said: "But isn't it interesting that the one of the clearest passages about the gospel that saves and the mystery, states that Paul preached this gospel according to the mystery. (Rom 16;25-27)  And when we go look up the mystery it clearly states what the mystery is and it does not state anything about the death, burial and resurrection, instead it says the mystery is
:
Eph 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

or

Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which[4] is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

What the Mystery "IS" is NOT contained just in these three verses, but in 14 doctrines found in Paul's epistles ONLY. They are listed here in the forum, but I will cut and paste here to reiterate what they ARE:


1. The formation of the Body of Christ
2. This PRESENT dispensation of the GRACE of God.
3. The GOSPEL of the GRACE of God
4. The temporary setting ASIDE of Israel
5. The EQUALITY of Jew and Gentile
6. The ONE baptism of Eph 4:5
7. The NEW commission to preach the gospel
8. The HEAVENLY position of the believer
9. Christ as the HEAD of the Body
10. The Lords Supper
11. The Coming of Christ in the AIR for his Church
12.The JUDGEMENT seat of Christ
13. The MINISTRY of the Holy Spirit
14. The FULL and COMPLETE Revelation

I have scriptures to show the veracity of each of these statements as to be found ONLY IN PAULS EPISTLES.



Furthermore:

Another way to look at this is to ask ourselves "What Information would we be missing without Pauls revelation from the Risen Christ?"


God tells us that the MYSTERY was an entire BODY of truth that He gave to ONE apostle and that information is found in Romans thru Philemon.



Without the "preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION of the MYSTERY..." Romans 16:25 we would HAVE:

NO "BODY OF CHRIST"

NO "PRESENT DISPENSATION of GRACE"

NO "Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD",

NO "Temporary SETTING ASIDE of the Nation Israel",

No "Equality of Jew and Gentile",

No "One baptism of Eph 4:5",

No "new commission to preach the gospel",

NO "heavenly position of the believer",

No "Christ as the Head of the Body",

NO "Coming of Christ in the air for His church",

No "Judgement seat of Christ",

No "different ministry of the Holy Spirit",

No "full and complete revelation"

Thats alot of stuff that wouldnt even be IN the bible if it wasn't for God giving to Paul a NEW message, for a NEW CREATION, for a NEW program never before given to anyone.