Born Again or Baptized into the Body

[Christine]

Two different things going on here. The H.S. comes UPON them, but we are INDWELT and made into something we were NOT before...members of a BODY.

That is an incredible statement, and again I had a sort of "lightbulb" moment.     The sort of is this...the Holy Spirit came upon the 12 at Pentecost.  Did He come and go then too....such as with Saul?

The answer would be YES.

Keep in mind that the Nations next step was to go into the GREAT TRIBULATION. The baptism they received was for POWER to endure the last course of curses she earned in the agreement she signed up for with God. This agreement can be found in Leviticus 26 (This is an entire STUDY, and cannot be gone into here, but at a later date I can send you the study material on a CD)  The Kingdom Church was NEVER indwelt by God as we are. That is but another very significant DIFFERENCE between the two programs.

[LookingUp]

Hi again.  Thanks for your help with this stuff.

Keep in mind that there are two programs here. Paul addresses those who have believed HIS gospel, and they are the ones who are members of the NEW CREATION, which is the "BODY OF CHRIST." The BODY truths are singularly distinct to Pauls gospel ONLY.

Why do you think Peter & the 11 did not take Paul’s gospel as their own after he explained it to them (at least by the time of the council in Jerusalem)?  And then they too could become part of the Body.  Didn’t Paul preach to Jews who were scattered from Jerusalem who initially heard of Peter’s gospel only (i.e. book of Romans) who later became part of the Body even after they had been “born again”?

The 12 were "in CHRIST" but NOT In the BODY. They believed in Christs earthly ministry and message, but were NOT members of THE BODY , as the BODY TRUTHS are distinct to Pauls teachings. The BODY didn't even exist as an entity until AFTER Pauls salvation.

Here is what God intends to do with both groups at some future time; this is His goal:

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

There will be different destinations to both groups who are IN CHRIST.

Peter and the 12 were IN CHRIST redemptively, but were still waiting for the times of refreshing as well as for their promised redemption. WE have our redemption NOW.

The NEW CREATURE has nothing to do with Peter and the KINGDOM saints. That is distinctly PAULINE.

What about Titus 3:5?  “He saved us… by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”?  Doesn’t regeneration mean born again here?

Good question. The scriptures are the same that you have been using, but simply acknowledging two groups with two distinct destinations and promises.

I forgot to answer your last question. YES, the baptism by the HOLY SPIRIT INTO the Body of Christ IS what makes us a NEW CREATION. That is why Peter and the gang were IN CHRIST redemptively, but NOT in the BODY. They are not baptized BY the HOLY Spirit, but by Christ WITH the Holy Spirit. Two different things going on here. The H.S. comes UPON them, but we are INDWELT and made into something we were NOT before...members of a BODY.


Does this help?

It is much to think on…
born again = kingdom believers (Israel)
new creature = grace believer (Body)

born again = old born again
new creature = something entirely new (because the old died?)

Is this correct?

But don’t born again people “die” with Christ too?  “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness… (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn't that why they must be born again (because they died)?

[Christine]

Hi again.  Thanks for your help with this stuff.

You are more than welcome. 

Why do you think Peter & the 11 did not take Paul’s gospel as their own after he explained it to them (at least by the time of the council in Jerusalem)?  And then they too could become part of the Body.

God never intended for the Kingdom saints to become BODY Saints. He had a program for them, and it was an important one. They were to be specifically and uniquely given an EARTHLY inheritance and EARTHLY promises for a LITERAL earthly Kingdom.

 As you "study", you will see the distinct nature of their calling and position with God. This is how I came to see it, and this is the only way YOU will come to see it as well. This is not said to discourage you or to keep you from asking these great questions, but to show you that there are NO shortcuts to this process. There are pieces of this wonderful puzzle that come ONLY thru systematic STUDY with others who can TEACH and help us to learn how to compare scripture with scripture and to let scripture give us our answers.

I would encourage you to begin studying WITH a seasoned teacher/pastor who will take you step by step into this awesome process of STUDYING to show ourselves approved unto God by rightly dividing the scriptures and SEEING these answers fall into place. We have a LIVE Bible Study in Paltalk twice weekly where many of these questions are dealt with in detail and where you will put yourself in a position for God to give you MANY "light bulb" moments where those pieces "CLICK." We also have a FREE CD with 79 GRACE TEACHING messages already taught on Paltalk that we can send to you. PERSONAL STUDY is where this "transforming by the renewing of our MINDS" will take place, and God has given us doctrinally sound teachers to help us with this process. Take advantage of them...they are a priceless commodity. 

Now, back to the question at hand:

NOTE with the following scripture from the Jerusalem Council that those who were ministers of the CIRCUMCISION (ie: with the KINGDOM gospel for the Nation Israel) had to PERCEIVE that Paul was indeed given not just GRACE, but the dispensation of the GRACE OF GOD for the world, and that this was indeed DIFFERENT from their ministry and calling. They indeed now understood the difference. It is we who have trouble understanding this concept because we do not see from the scriptures the uniqueness of Gods law program with Israel. Theirs was a "conditional" arrangement, contingent on their DEMONSTRATING their faith by DOING what God had commanded for THEM. Ours is NOT.


Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we (those entrusted with Paul's NEW HOUSE RULES from God) should go unto the heathen, and they (those having an earthly inheritance who had already trusted in the coming Messiah and thelaw) unto the circumcision.

God has TWO programs for a specific REASON. Looking at Gen. 1:1 "God created the heavens AND the earth."

  Herein lies the KEY to the whole matter...the BIG PICTURE, if you will. 

These are two realms which God created containing a governmental structure of principalities and rules and rulership.  Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Both of these realms were corrupted by satan. Our Bibles are Gods explaining to us in detail just how He intends to RE establish His rightful rule and reign in BOTH of those realms.

Israel is the one given the dominion over EARTHLY real estate and promised an EARTHLY, and very LITERAL , KINGDOM.

We, the church which is His body, are given HEAVENLY promises and hope. We will rule over angels.

Both under ONE LORD, but different designated areas to rule and reign.


 

Didn’t Paul preach to Jews who were scattered from Jerusalem who initially heard of Peter’s gospel only (i.e. book of Romans) who later became part of the Body even after they had been “born again”?

There was no switching between programs taking place. If a Jew had believed under Peters gospel then he stayed a Kingdom saint. The ONLY way a jew could become a BODY saint was to have not believed Peters gospel.

Keep in mind that the ONLY time that the two gospels were operating at the same time was in ACTS. Acts shows us Peters gospel phasing OUT, and Pauls gospel phasing IN. By the end of Acts, Peter isn't even mentioned, and neither is the gospel he preached. That is because God was no longer offering salvation under Peters gospel.  "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to them that BELIEVE (in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and NOT in Christ as MESSIAH) 

What you see in Romans 9, 10, and chapter 11 is God explaining thru Paul "WHAT HAPPENED TO ISRAEL?"

Romans 9 = shows what happened to Israel in TIMES PAST

Romans 10 = shows Israel in the BUT NOW

Romans 11 = shows Israel in Ages to COME

Those who were saved under Peters Gospel, STAYED saved under Peters Gospel.

It is much to think on…

 INDEED IT IS, but think on it you MUST. 

 "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." We are ONLY transformed by the RENEWING of our MINDS, scripture tells us. This being the case, this is where most of the battle will be fought and won is right between our ears!

born again = kingdom believers (Israel)...born ONCE as a NATION; needing to be born AGAIN as a Nation. NATIONAL salvation.
new creature = grace believer (Body)....placed INTO a NEW CREATION which is called the church the Body of Christ. INDIVIDUAL salvation.

Don't forget to look at the reasons given in SCRIPTURE for these differences. Look at the distinction I highlighted in red in your quote above.

The NEW CREATION IS the Body of Christ. YOU are made part of an organism that simply did not exist for the Nation ISRAEL, as it was HID IN GOD, KEPT SECRET until due time, and NOT PART OF THEIR program. The NEW CREATION is part of the MYSTERY TRUTH given ONLY TO PAUL.

born again = old born again
new creature = something entirely new (because the old died?)

Is this correct?

 Don't confuse the issues here. You are mixing what God does with Israel with what God does with US. God's program with Israel hasn't "died." It has been temporarily SET ASIDE and will again be RESUMED after this age of GRACE is finished.

It is two separate belief systems. One based on the law of Moses for a NATION. The other based on GRACE and God working thru a living entity that did NOT exist before.

That is why God tells us to study things out. The entire HISTORY of His dealings with Israel are there for a reason. Until we understand how and why He dealt with Israel the way He did, we will have trouble with these kinds of thoughts because we are so unknowledgable about the diffferences.  It doesn't make sense that their program was so different, so we get all flustered and nervous because we don't have all the answers IMMEDIATELY!   Am I right, or am I right?? 

 We all do that when first coming into right division, so you are in good company. I drove people NUTS and actually demanded instant answers to my questions (being the IMPATIENT PERSON that I am  ) but came to realize that if I sat and LISTENED and studied as God told me to do (gasp...could it be true?  ) the answers I sought "fell into place" as I learned the foundational truths FIRST.  I knew NOTHING of Gods plan with Israel, and therefore had trouble understanding much of what I was reading and how it fit in. This can only be learned over time and I wish I could tell you there is a shortcut, but there isn't! 

But don’t born again people “die” with Christ too?  “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness… (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn't that why they must be born again (because they died)?

Christianity today has confused the issue of being born again and makes it one of confusion. If we simply rightly divide and look at what terms God uses for each distinctive group, we WILL be better off.

We are made into a NEW CREATION...which happens when the HOLY Spirit PLACES us INTO what IS the NEW CREATION, which IS    the church which is His Body. You might be having problems with this concept if you are coming from a catholic perception of "His body."

The church which is His BODY today is comprised of individual members who have believed in the gospel given to Paul having to do with the finished work of the Cross.

The KINGDOM church of times PAST and ages to COME is comprised of a NATION. God was dealing with NATIONAL salvation , and not individual salvation as the focus. ALL of Israel was to BELIEVE and then lead all the other nations to God.  All of Israel did NOT believe. So God took those who did and called them "the little flock", and SET ASIDE His dealings with a NATION as they , as a NATION, were in UNBELIEF.

These questions you have asked are good ones , but they involve individual studies and alot of material. The foundation must be laid first, and then followed thru in the scriptures. A Bible Study is what you need and alot of these questions would find their answers. This I speak from experience, as one person, such as myself, cannot possibly answer all your questions. This is why we listen to TEACHERS/Pastors whom have studied more than WE have, so that we might learn.

I admit that I am still learning. There are many who do much better at this than I do...and I have NO problem admitting it! There is a freedom in knowing your limitations and not exceeding them. I highly recommend getting into a systematic study of ONE topic at a time until you are established, and then moving on to another. Or, simply listening and taking notes helps tremendously.

There are still times for me when it all seems to go over my head...in those times, I simply set it aside and realize I am on OVERLOAD and need to take time to assimilate that which I have learned up to that time. You cannot possibly understand it ALL at once, and will need to Pace yourself. I cannot stress this enough. When I feel myself getting impatient, I know I have reached "saturation" point and need to stop and regroup.

I hope this helps YOU too.


Have I totally confused you? Is this clear?

[LookingUp]

God never intended for the Kingdom saints to become BODY Saints. He had a program for them, and it was an important one. They were to be specifically and uniquely given an EARTHLY inheritance and EARTHLY promises for a LITERAL earthly Kingdom.

After the 1,000 years are up, what happens to those who are promised an earthly inheritance?  If the literal kingdom is up in 1,000 years, what happens then?  Does it become an eternal order for both the earthly and heavenly in some way?  Wouldn’t that mean that at some point the earthly is no longer around?

As you "study", you will see the distinct nature of their calling and position with God. This is how I came to see it, and this is the only way YOU will come to see it as well. This is not said to discourage you or to keep you from asking these great questions, but to show you that there are NO shortcuts to this process. There are pieces of this wonderful puzzle that come ONLY thru systematic STUDY with others who can TEACH and help us to learn how to compare scripture with scripture and to let scripture give us our answers.

I have begun to notice those distinctions.  I know there is an earthly promise made to Israel (certainly not us, the Body).  What confuses me most is what happens after that, as I mentioned above.

I would encourage you to begin studying WITH a seasoned teacher/pastor who will take you step by step into this awesome process of STUDYING to show ourselves approved unto God by rightly dividing the scriptures and SEEING these answers fall into place. We have a LIVE Bible Study in Paltalk twice weekly where many of these questions are dealt with in detail and where you will put yourself in a position for God to give you MANY "light bulb" moments where those pieces "CLICK." We also have a FREE CD with 79 GRACE TEACHING messages already taught on Paltalk that we can send to you. PERSONAL STUDY is where this "transforming by the renewing of our MINDS" will take place, and God has given us doctrinally sound teachers to help us with this process. Take advantage of them...they are a priceless commodity. 

I don’t know any pastors who teach this.  I know no one out here who knows or believes this “at this level.”  I would love any and all materials leading me to a greater understanding in this.

I’ll look over this site and try to find the “Paltalk” you mention.  Sounds wonderful.

Now, back to the question at hand:

NOTE with the following scripture from the Jerusalem Council that those who were ministers of the CIRCUMCISION (ie: with the KINGDOM gospel for the Nation Israel) had to PERCEIVE that Paul was indeed given not just GRACE, but the dispensation of the GRACE OF GOD for the world, and that this was indeed DIFFERENT from their ministry and calling. They indeed now understood the difference. It is we who have trouble understanding this concept because we do not see from the scriptures the uniqueness of Gods law program with Israel. Theirs was a "conditional" arrangement, contingent on their DEMONSTRATING their faith by DOING what God had commanded for THEM. Ours is NOT.


Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we (those entrusted with Paul's NEW HOUSE RULES from God) should go unto the heathen, and they (those having an earthly inheritance who had already trusted in the coming Messiah and thelaw) unto the circumcision.

God has TWO programs for a specific REASON. Looking at Gen. 1:1 "God created the heavens AND the earth."

Makes sense.  What I wonder about are those Jews under Peter’s teaching who were scattered and then also taught others and then taught others and so on.  Didn’t Paul’s message eventually reach those who had believed Peter’s message?  There were thousands of Jews under Peter’s teaching who scattered.  Do you see what I mean?  What do you think about this thought?

I realize I ask questions sometimes that just can’t be found in scripture.  But I ask because you have been doing this so long and may have made sense of some of these things in your mind that would be helpful to me in seeing the whole picture in a more complete way.

Herein lies the KEY to the whole matter...the BIG PICTURE, if you will. 

These are two realms which God created containing a governmental structure of principalities and rules and rulership.  Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Both of these realms were corrupted by satan. Our Bibles are Gods explaining to us in detail just how He intends to RE establish His rightful rule and reign in BOTH of those realms.

Israel is the one given the dominion over EARTHLY real estate and promised an EARTHLY, and very LITERAL , KINGDOM.

We, the church which is His body, are given HEAVENLY promises and hope. We will rule over angels.

Both under ONE LORD, but different designated areas to rule and reign.

This is very cool.  I do see these things in scripture.  I’m so excited about our future!  What an amazing hope we have… makes me want to share with every soul I know!

Anyway… this all goes back to my first question above regarding “what happens after the 1,000 years?”  If our promises are distinct, are they distinct forever?  IOW, I can see our heavenly reign as everlasting, but I can’t see the earthly reign (promises to Israel) as everlasting?  Are they?  Where is that in scripture?  The new heavens and new earth in Rev. 21?  Is that it?  Is this when the heavenly and earthly become united?  When heavenly Jerusalem comes down upon the earth?

"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." We are ONLY transformed by the RENEWING of our MINDS, scripture tells us. This being the case, this is where most of the battle will be fought and won is right between our ears!

Boy, that is true!

born again = kingdom believers (Israel)...born ONCE as a NATION; needing to be born AGAIN as a Nation. NATIONAL salvation.
new creature = grace believer (Body)....placed INTO a NEW CREATION which is called the church the Body of Christ. INDIVIDUAL salvation.

Don't forget to look at the reasons given in SCRIPTURE for these differences. Look at the distinction I highlighted in red in your quote above.

The NEW CREATION IS the Body of Christ. YOU are made part of an organism that simply did not exist for the Nation ISRAEL, as it was HID IN GOD, KEPT SECRET until due time, and NOT PART OF THEIR program. The NEW CREATION is part of the MYSTERY TRUTH given ONLY TO PAUL.

Don't confuse the issues here. You are mixing what God does with Israel with what God does with US. God's program with Israel hasn't "died." It has been temporarily SET ASIDE and will again be RESUMED after this age of GRACE is finished.

It is two separate belief systems. One based on the law of Moses for a NATION. The other based on GRACE and God working thru a living entity that did NOT exist before.

Although Israel is to experience rebirth (born again), I thought individual kingdom believers also experience rebirth (born again) John 3 and 1 Peter 1:23?

“…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

“…for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable that is through the living and enduring word of God.”

This is individual rebirth, yes?

That is why God tells us to study things out. The entire HISTORY of His dealings with Israel are there for a reason. Until we understand how and why He dealt with Israel the way He did, we will have trouble with these kinds of thoughts because we are so unknowledgable about the diffferences.  It doesn't make sense that their program was so different, so we get all flustered and nervous because we don't have all the answers IMMEDIATELY!   Am I right, or am I right?? 

 We all do that when first coming into right division, so you are in good company. I drove people NUTS and actually demanded instant answers to my questions (being the IMPATIENT PERSON that I am  ) but came to realize that if I sat and LISTENED and studied as God told me to do (gasp...could it be true?  ) the answers I sought "fell into place" as I learned the foundational truths FIRST.  I knew NOTHING of Gods plan with Israel, and therefore had trouble understanding much of what I was reading and how it fit in. This can only be learned over time and I wish I could tell you there is a shortcut, but there isn't!

You won’t meet anyone as impatient as I am when it comes to deeply desiring answers regarding scripture.  Many nights over the years have I spent in tears crying out to God to help me understand His Word.  It is truly one of my greatest desires in life.

But don’t born again people “die” with Christ too?  “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness… (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn't that why they must be born again (because they died)?

Christianity today has confused the issue of being born again and makes it one of confusion. If we simply rightly divide and look at what terms God uses for each distinctive group, we WILL be better off.

We are made into a NEW CREATION...which happens when the HOLY Spirit PLACES us INTO what IS the NEW CREATION, which IS    the church which is His Body. You might be having problems with this concept if you are coming from a catholic perception of "His body."

The church which is His BODY today is comprised of individual members who have believed in the gospel given to Paul having to do with the finished work of the Cross.

The KINGDOM church of times PAST and ages to COME is comprised of a NATION. God was dealing with NATIONAL salvation , and not individual salvation as the focus. ALL of Israel was to BELIEVE and then lead all the other nations to God.  All of Israel did NOT believe. So God took those who did and called them "the little flock", and SET ASIDE His dealings with a NATION as they , as a NATION, were in UNBELIEF.

We are saved individually but made into One Body.  I thought individual Jews were and will be saved (born again) and are in one Nation called Israel?

What do you think about this…

The word of reconciliation – that won’t be offered in the trib.?  Didn’t God reconcile to Himself the world once and for all?

And John 3:16?  Doesn’t that sound like the word of reconciliation?  How else could the offer of “whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life” but through the act of reconciliation?

These questions you have asked are good ones , but they involve individual studies and alot of material. The foundation must be laid first, and then followed thru in the scriptures. A Bible Study is what you need and alot of these questions would find their answers. This I speak from experience, as one person, such as myself, cannot possibly answer all your questions. This is why we listen to TEACHERS/Pastors whom have studied more than WE have, so that we might learn.

I don’t know any.  I’m on my own.

I admit that I am still learning. There are many who do much better at this than I do...and I have NO problem admitting it! There is a freedom in knowing your limitations and not exceeding them. I highly recommend getting into a systematic study of ONE topic at a time until you are established, and then moving on to another. Or, simply listening and taking notes helps tremendously.

There are still times for me when it all seems to go over my head...in those times, I simply set it aside and realize I am on OVERLOAD and need to take time to assimilate that which I have learned up to that time. You cannot possibly understand it ALL at once, and will need to Pace yourself. I cannot stress this enough. When I feel myself getting impatient, I know I have reached "saturation" point and need to stop and regroup.

I hope this helps YOU too.


Have I totally confused you? Is this clear?

No, you have not confused me.  You lit another fire under me!  More, more, more!  Sounds like a baby never getting enough milk out of his bottle, huh?   

[Christine]

After the 1,000 years are up, what happens to those who are promised an earthly inheritance?  If the literal kingdom is up in 1,000 years, what happens then?  Does it become an eternal order for both the earthly and heavenly in some way?  Wouldn’t that mean that at some point the earthly is no longer around?

The earthly Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom. This means what it says...never ending. ( Remember...there are TWO realms that God has created and that He has the right to rule and reign over. ONE Is heaven, and one is the EARTH.)


2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

After the 1000 yrs there is a new heaven and a new earth with these two groups governing in the structure of each distinct destination.

What confuses me most is what happens after that, as I mentioned above.

No need to be confused. The Bible tells us what happens. It is however, a STUDY, and to see the whole picture, I would recommend the book "Satan and His plan of evil" by Keith Blades at some point in time. He covers the full picture, but it will probably be too much for you at this point in time. What you need to be clear on is that there IS a difference in gospels and programs. The other will explain itself as you get into deeper study. I'm telling you the truth from experience. There is no need to go into it now as your NEED is to have a firm foundation of the BASIC truths you need to NAIL DOWN, before going onto filling in the details. Both are exciting, but one must come BEFORE the other is possible. You WILL learn patience in your study of this message, as God will NOT address certain of these issues with you UNTIL you have mastered the basic ones. Its like with a child. You don't begin feeding it steak and potatos...but food that he can digest easily. As he grows, the diet becomes more complex and involves things to chew, instead of that which requires only 'swallowing.'  The same concept applies here. You will only CHOKE on eating meat, until your system learns to handle "milk." We ALL have to start here...and for some this is difficult as they want it ALL ...and they want it "right NOW."  It will come precept upon precept...first things FIRST.  We only frustrate ourselves when we demand that God teach us FAST. Study is how He does it...and He makes NO exceptions for anyone, no matter how impatient we are.  Not an easy lesson for hardheads like me, but you WILL learn it and it will be to a great advantage if you take one thing at a time.

I don’t know any pastors who teach this.  I know no one out here who knows or believes this “at this level.”  I would love any and all materials leading me to a greater understanding in this.

Well, I can put you in contact with several that you can listen to at your own leisure from your computer at home. Our ministry is included in this list of course.

We would be happy to send you the CD as well as the free books we offer to help you study this out for yourself. I will need you to give me your mailing address so I can put a package together for you to mail on Monday. Can you provide me with that information?  Mari has already received her package so you can ask her if the material has been helpful.

I’ll look over this site and try to find the “Paltalk” you mention.  Sounds wonderful.

Paltalk is very simple to download.  Once you have picked a nickname, just email or PM me and let me know what the nickname is you have chosen and I will look for you online and invite you to the room when I see you online. Thats all there is to it. Then you just sit and listen, and if you wish to enter into the question and answer time at the end of the lesson, you may do so. You will need speakers and of course a headset or microphone to use the speaking feature, or you can type your question in text.

Makes sense.  What I wonder about are those Jews under Peter’s teaching who were scattered and then also taught others and then taught others and so on.  Didn’t Paul’s message eventually reach those who had believed Peter’s message?  There were thousands of Jews under Peter’s teaching who scattered.  Do you see what I mean?  What do you think about this thought?

Those who believed the KINGDOM gospel were called "the little flock" or "BELIEVING Israel". They will be part of the earthly Kingdom that is promised to Israel. Pauls message was understood by those who were KINGDOM believers, and they continued on in their Jewish program until they all died out.  That program ceased to be offered for salvation when God SET ASIDE the nation Israel for UNBELIEF, and switched programs to GRACE instead of LAW. All those jews who were scattered and who heard only Peters teaching died out. According to whether or not they believed at the time this gospel was being preached will determine their eternal status. If those who were scattered didn't come to God thru Peter but later heard Pauls gospel and believed it, they were included in the church, the Body of Christ. This only happened in Acts when both programs were in operation at the same time: ONE phasing OUT and one PHASING IN.

After Acts, it was ONE program and ONE gospel ONLY. Pauls gospel is the ONLY Gospel that saves today!

I realize I ask questions sometimes that just can’t be found in scripture.  But I ask because you have been doing this so long and may have made sense of some of these things in your mind that would be helpful to me in seeing the whole picture in a more complete way.

The whole picture will be seen ONLY as you study. I can provide thumbnail information, but you will need to learn the BASICS first, and then the whole picture will become CLEAR. Remember I told you that we cannot start with the roof, but need to build a foundation FIRST?

Your questions are common to all folks who come into right division. There isn't a question that cannot be answered. The issue is it probably won't be answered when you want the answer, as there are other things that need to be addressed and settled BEFORE the particular piece of the puzzle that YOU are enquiring about can be put into the picture. To try and complete the picture OUT OF ORDER, will only confuse and frustrate you. So...YOU will learn patience. You are just beginning. Learn to LISTEN and assimilate the basics. Take it SLOW...and the answers will fall into place so as to amaze you. I can promise you this because this is how God works with EVERYONE...not just the chosen few.

Hold onto your hat. Fasten that seatbelt. You are in for ONE WILD RIDE!

This is very cool.  I do see these things in scripture.  I’m so excited about our future!  What an amazing hope we have… makes me want to share with every soul I know!

Its not just the future, but the present as well. We have a very exciting and awesome present as we see ourselves in our NEW IDENTITY and learn to understand how WE fit in the present plan and purpose of God in this world we live in TODAY!!

"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." We are ONLY transformed by the RENEWING of our MINDS, scripture tells us. This being the case, this is where most of the battle will be fought and won is right between our ears!

Boy, that is true!

Although Israel is to experience rebirth (born again), I thought individual kingdom believers also experience rebirth (born again) John 3 and 1 Peter 1:23?

“…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

“…for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable that is through the living and enduring word of God.”

This is individual rebirth, yes?

Anything happening to Israel is seen by God as having to do with a NATIONAL salvation. Yes, some believed and some didn't...but the PURPOSE of their program was for the entire NATION as a whole to believe and then lead all  other nations to God. The point is they had different instructions to follow and had to DEMONSTRATE their faith by DOING what God told THEM to do. FAITH PLUS works. Ours is by faith alone in the finished work of Christ.

You won’t meet anyone as impatient as I am when it comes to deeply desiring answers regarding scripture.  Many nights over the years have I spent in tears crying out to God to help me understand His Word.  It is truly one of my greatest desires in life.

Well God is answering your prayer NOW. You WILL get the answers, but it won't be in the "INSTANT" manner in which we, as humans, tend to want things to happen. It is a WONDERFUL thing that this is your greatest desire. God is going to see to it that you become knowledgable thru study. That is how He does it. No other way. So...are you ready to patiently LISTEN?  Are you ready to go at what may seem like a slow pace to YOU, but a safe and reasonable pace to God, and let HIM give you what you need to know when you need to know it?  Will you place yourself in the learning environment where you are shown in the scriptures the things you need to SEE to be 'transformed by the renewing of your MIND?'

But don’t born again people “die” with Christ too?  “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness… (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn't that why they must be born again (because they died)?

No. Peter is speaking here to Jews in ages to COME and not to we who are members of His Body today. Being born again had to do with believing Gods message to THEM, which had to do with a PROMISED and coming MESSIAH and KING, and not with identifying with Christs death, burial and resurrection. Peter is speaking AFTER the fact of realizing what Christ died for, but they will not be operating as we do with the INDWELLING of Christ. That is specific and distinct to we who are the BODY of Christ in this present dispensation alone.

What do you think about this…

The word of reconciliation – that won’t be offered in the trib.?  Didn’t God reconcile to Himself the world once and for all?

And John 3:16?  Doesn’t that sound like the word of reconciliation?  How else could the offer of “whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life” but through the act of reconciliation?

NO. The word of reconciliation will NOT be offered in the Great Tribulation. How do I know? Because that time is the time of Jacobs Trouble. It is the last course of curses that Israel signed up for with God in Leviticus 26. They were EXPECTING this to occur because they KNEW what the next chain of events WERE to be expected from their prophetic books.

God HAS reconciled the world unto Himself..but ONLY in this present dispensation of GRACE is that promise fulfilled. Under Peters gospel, the bottom line was that the world would come to God thru BELIEVING ISRAEL.  She never believed as a NATION...and God had a SECRET plan that would keep the Jews failure from thwarting Gods plan to redeem the world. THIS is where Gods SECRET PLAN comes in. The jews didnt know about it, satan didnt know about it, but GOD had it in mind ALL ALONG...He just kept in HIDDEN until due time.

John 3:16 is NOT the gospel of our salvation today. This was the gospel to the Nation Israel when they were to believe on His NAME as their MESSIAH and PROPHESIED KING.

Do you see the death, burial and resurrection being given here as the basis by which they were saved? NO. IN context, the nation Israel was to believe what God told THEM about a coming MESSIAH and KING. NOTHING said about a "head of a BODY"...that was something entirely different. No body of Christ existed at this time.

I don’t know any.  I’m on my own.

No you're not. There are plenty of grace believers out there who are more than willing to help you and to get you established in the grace message. You know US...and we can put you in touch with many others who stand firm in this message as well.

No, you have not confused me.  You lit another fire under me!  More, more, more!  Sounds like a baby never getting enough milk out of his bottle, huh?   

Well thats wonderful! Just remember....too much milk at one time will make the baby have an upset tummy and throw UP! The same concept works with YOU!  Take it slow and give yourself time to "digest" before going onto trying to chew STEAK. You may be able to gum it to death, but wont get any nourishment from it that way.

First things first...milk milk milk. We are so excited for you and can assure you that this path is a wondrous one. You will never be the same again. And thats a GOOD thing. 

[LookingUp]

The earthly Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom. This means what it says...never ending. ( Remember...there are TWO realms that God has created and that He has the right to rule and reign over. ONE Is heaven, and one is the EARTH.)


2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

After the 1000 yrs there is a new heaven and a new earth with these two groups governing in the structure of each distinct destination.

Got it!  Thanks.

No need to be confused. The Bible tells us what happens. It is however, a STUDY, and to see the whole picture, I would recommend the book "Satan and His plan of evil" by Keith Blades at some point in time. He covers the full picture, but it will probably be too much for you at this point in time. What you need to be clear on is that there IS a difference in gospels and programs. The other will explain itself as you get into deeper study. I'm telling you the truth from experience. There is no need to go into it now as your NEED is to have a firm foundation of the BASIC truths you need to NAIL DOWN, before going onto filling in the details. Both are exciting, but one must come BEFORE the other is possible. You WILL learn patience in your study of this message, as God will NOT address certain of these issues with you UNTIL you have mastered the basic ones. Its like with a child. You don't begin feeding it steak and potatos...but food that he can digest easily. As he grows, the diet becomes more complex and involves things to chew, instead of that which requires only 'swallowing.'  The same concept applies here. You will only CHOKE on eating meat, until your system learns to handle "milk." We ALL have to start here...and for some this is difficult as they want it ALL ...and they want it "right NOW."  It will come precept upon precept...first things FIRST.  We only frustrate ourselves when we demand that God teach us FAST. Study is how He does it...and He makes NO exceptions for anyone, no matter how impatient we are.  Not an easy lesson for hardheads like me, but you WILL learn it and it will be to a great advantage if you take one thing at a time.

I’ll try.

Well, I can put you in contact with several that you can listen to at your own leisure from your computer at home. Our ministry is included in this list of course.

We would be happy to send you the CD as well as the free books we offer to help you study this out for yourself. I will need you to give me your mailing address so I can put a package together for you to mail on Monday. Can you provide me with that information?  Mari has already received her package so you can ask her if the material has been helpful.

I’m looking forward to it!

Paltalk is very simple to download.  Once you have picked a nickname, just email or PM me and let me know what the nickname is you have chosen and I will look for you online and invite you to the room when I see you online. Thats all there is to it. Then you just sit and listen, and if you wish to enter into the question and answer time at the end of the lesson, you may do so. You will need speakers and of course a headset or microphone to use the speaking feature, or you can type your question in text.

Thanks.  I’ll “see” you Tuesday.  I’ll have to see if I can get a mic or I guess I’ll just type.

Those who believed the KINGDOM gospel were called "the little flock" or "BELIEVING Israel". They will be part of the earthly Kingdom that is promised to Israel. Pauls message was understood by those who were KINGDOM believers, and they continued on in their Jewish program until they all died out.  That program ceased to be offered for salvation when God SET ASIDE the nation Israel for UNBELIEF, and switched programs to GRACE instead of LAW. All those jews who were scattered and who heard only Peters teaching died out. According to whether or not they believed at the time this gospel was being preached will determine their eternal status. If those who were scattered didn't come to God thru Peter but later heard Pauls gospel and believed it, they were included in the church, the Body of Christ. This only happened in Acts when both programs were in operation at the same time: ONE phasing OUT and one PHASING IN.  After Acts, it was ONE program and ONE gospel ONLY. Pauls gospel is the ONLY Gospel that saves today!

Is there anyway to know if those who believed Peter’s gospel and were scattered came to an understanding of the two programs?  Did they understand it was a message (kingdom message) that was no longer available?

The whole picture will be seen ONLY as you study. I can provide thumbnail information, but you will need to learn the BASICS first, and then the whole picture will become CLEAR. Remember I told you that we cannot start with the roof, but need to build a foundation FIRST?

Your questions are common to all folks who come into right division. There isn't a question that cannot be answered. The issue is it probably won't be answered when you want the answer, as there are other things that need to be addressed and settled BEFORE the particular piece of the puzzle that YOU are enquiring about can be put into the picture. To try and complete the picture OUT OF ORDER, will only confuse and frustrate you. So...YOU will learn patience. You are just beginning. Learn to LISTEN and assimilate the basics. Take it SLOW...and the answers will fall into place so as to amaze you. I can promise you this because this is how God works with EVERYONE...not just the chosen few.

Hold onto your hat. Fasten that seatbelt. You are in for ONE WILD RIDE!

Let’s go!

Well God is answering your prayer NOW. You WILL get the answers, but it won't be in the "INSTANT" manner in which we, as humans, tend to want things to happen. It is a WONDERFUL thing that this is your greatest desire. God is going to see to it that you become knowledgable thru study. That is how He does it. No other way. So...are you ready to patiently LISTEN?  Are you ready to go at what may seem like a slow pace to YOU, but a safe and reasonable pace to God, and let HIM give you what you need to know when you need to know it?  Will you place yourself in the learning environment where you are shown in the scriptures the things you need to SEE to be 'transformed by the renewing of your MIND?'

Yes!

NO. The word of reconciliation will NOT be offered in the Great Tribulation. How do I know? Because that time is the time of Jacobs Trouble. It is the last course of curses that Israel signed up for with God in Leviticus 26. They were EXPECTING this to occur because they KNEW what the next chain of events WERE to be expected from their prophetic books.

God HAS reconciled the world unto Himself..but ONLY in this present dispensation of GRACE is that promise fulfilled. Under Peters gospel, the bottom line was that the world would come to God thru BELIEVING ISRAEL.  She never believed as a NATION...and God had a SECRET plan that would keep the Jews failure from thwarting Gods plan to redeem the world. THIS is where Gods SECRET PLAN comes in. The jews didnt know about it, satan didnt know about it, but GOD had it in mind ALL ALONG...He just kept in HIDDEN until due time.

John 3:16 is NOT the gospel of our salvation today. This was the gospel to the Nation Israel when they were to believe on His NAME as their MESSIAH and PROPHESIED KING.

Do you see the death, burial and resurrection being given here as the basis by which they were saved? NO. IN context, the nation Israel was to believe what God told THEM about a coming MESSIAH and KING. NOTHING said about a "head of a BODY"...that was something entirely different. No body of Christ existed at this time.

How are the nations redeemed in the MK.  They come to know the Lord through exalted Israel, but what was the process that made it possible for God to redeem the nations?

In other words:
If John 3:16 (God redeeming Israel through the cross/Lamb of God) is for Israel alone and the word of reconciliation (God reconciling the world unto Himself through the cross/Savior taking on sins of world) is for this age of grace alone, by what means is it that the gentile nations in the MK obtain eternal life?

Question 2:
Did God perform two things at once…
Wasn’t Jesus the Lamb of God (taking sins of Israel) [isn’t that what the Lamb did] and wasn’t God reconciling (taking sins of world) the world to Himself both at the same time?

No you're not. There are plenty of grace believers out there who are more than willing to help you and to get you established in the grace message. You know US...and we can put you in touch with many others who stand firm in this message as well.

Thanks!

Well thats wonderful! Just remember....too much milk at one time will make the baby have an upset tummy and throw UP! The same concept works with YOU!  Take it slow and give yourself time to "digest" before going onto trying to chew STEAK. You may be able to gum it to death, but wont get any nourishment from it that way.

First things first...milk milk milk. We are so excited for you and can assure you that this path is a wondrous one. You will never be the same again. And thats a GOOD thing. 

I’d rather throw up from too much than get too thin!  Hee hee!  I am looking forward to the materials and Paltalk.  I’m sure those will get me going in the right direction!

[Christine]

Is there anyway to know if those who believed Peter’s gospel and were scattered came to an understanding of the two programs?  Did they understand it was a message (kingdom message) that was no longer available?

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas (Peter) , and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me(Paul), they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

From this verse we can see clearly that the understanding (ie: the word perceived means to understand) of the difference was made clear. Peter would have communicated that to his followers and those who had been saved under the KINGDOM message, I'm sure. 

Israel was very aware that God CEASED dealing with them as a NATION. He called them "lo ammi" (ie: not my people), He gave them a bill of divorcement, and He lowered them to the status of the gentile nations due to their UNBELIEF. "God concluded them ALL (jew and gentile) in UNBELIEF that He might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

God tells us that through Israels FALL, salvation is come unto the gentiles

 Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Why would they be jealous? Because they KNEW that their favored status as a NATION who was to lead all other nations to God had been REMOVED.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you(YOU=Israel), that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Israel KNEW that the program had changed.

In other words:
If John 3:16 (God redeeming Israel through the cross/Lamb of God) is for Israel alone and the word of reconciliation (God reconciling the world unto Himself through the cross/Savior taking on sins of world) is for this age of grace alone, by what means is it that the gentile nations in the MK obtain eternal life?

John 3:16 doesn't mention the Cross. Only PAUL preaches the meaning of the Cross and it being the critical element for OUR salvation. Israel didn't understand the significance of the Cross, neither did Christ make it the subject matter for them to believe to be saved. They were to believe in their prophesied MESSIAH and KING.  Israel obtained eternal life "IF" she endured to the end. Israel obtained eternal life "if" she obeyed the commandments given to HER by God. Believing in the Cross was not something that Israel was told to DO. That is uniquely part of the MYSTERY truths given ONLY to Paul.
 
In the MK the INTERRUPTED program of the law of Moses will be RESUMED, and gentile nations will come to God thru Israel again. We are in the PARENTHETICAL age of GRACE where anyone can come to God thru the Cross APART from Israel.  In TIMES PAST and AGES to COME, no one will come to God but THRU Gods channel of blessing in that particular program.

Look at Israels program as the two pieces of bread in a sandwich. Times Past is the top piece. In between is the AGE of GRACE and the program we are in today.The bottom half (representing ages to COME) of the bread is the resuming of the same program as times PAST.

Question 2:
Did God perform two things at once…
Wasn’t Jesus the Lamb of God (taking sins of Israel) [isn’t that what the Lamb did] and wasn’t God reconciling (taking sins of world) the world to Himself both at the same time?

In His earthly ministry Jesus came as the ransom for MANY.

 Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Christ RISEN explains that in His foreknowledge that Israel would remain in UNBELIEF and in the foreknowledge of His program that was KEPT SECRET, accomplished BOTH on the Cross..the ransom for MANY (had Israel believed) AND the ransom for ALL.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.  Paul is the due time testifier, and Paul alone. It is only AFTER the Cross that the difference is seen from both vantage points. Had the Jews believed, the ransom would have been for many and Israel would have carried through Gods plan for them to lead all nations to Christ.

However, God knew they wouldn't cooperate, and His death on the Cross was a ransom for ALL. He wasn't going to let Israels unbelief STOP Him from redeeming the world. That is why the MYSTERY is so important. God in His foreknowledge planned ahead for all contingencies and tells us as much in His Word.

I’d rather throw up from too much than get too thin!  Hee hee!  I am looking forward to the materials and Paltalk.  I’m sure those will get me going in the right direction!

With regard to your comment about 'rather throw up than be too thin....."     Nooooooo....God wants you to learn PATIENCE. We live in a world where we want things INSTANTANEOUSLY or we tend to throw a  tantrum. We need to wean ourselves from this very unattractive mindset. It is seen as cute in little babies, but in adults it is not something we want, as believers , to cultivate. Since God has made it clear that HE will determine the way and the timing for each individual to grow, and that it depends on STUDY...then as we trust Him to reveal things as we need them, HE will cause us to grow in GRACE. We must take a good look at what a "demanding type of attitude" says about US...gulp...and I include myself here right with ya   God is the ONE setting the standards by which we learn, AND the pace as well. NO one will get this overnight. There are things that you must nail down FIRST...before all the other things become crystal clear. If there was a shortcut to this, I would probably show you my true self and KNOCK YOU DOWN  to secure the FIRST place in line. Its true! 

So, don't make yourself sick.  Continue asking questions, but examine yourself so that your "impatience" doesn't become an obstacle to your full potential towards learning. The things that don't "make sense" yet, put them on a shelf and as you study, you will be amazed at how those things will fall into place so easily. This is the voice of experience talking here....and any seasoned grace believer will tell you exactly the same thing.

I missed the post office this morning...got up too late..so will mail your package out on Monday.....wheeeeeeeeeeee!

[LookingUp]

John 3:16 doesn't mention the Cross. Only PAUL preaches the meaning of the Cross and it being the critical element for OUR salvation. Israel didn't understand the significance of the Cross, neither did Christ make it the subject matter for them to believe to be saved. They were to believe in their prophesied MESSIAH and KING.  Israel obtained eternal life "IF" she endured to the end. Israel obtained eternal life "if" she obeyed the commandments given to HER by God. Believing in the Cross was not something that Israel was told to DO. That is uniquely part of the MYSTERY truths given ONLY to Paul.
 
In the MK the INTERRUPTED program of the law of Moses will be RESUMED, and gentile nations will come to God thru Israel again. We are in the PARENTHETICAL age of GRACE where anyone can come to God thru the Cross APART from Israel.  In TIMES PAST and AGES to COME, no one will come to God but THRU Gods channel of blessing in that particular program.

Look at Israels program as the two pieces of bread in a sandwich. Times Past is the top piece, in between is the AGE of GRACE and the program we are in today, the bottom half (represents ages to COME) of the bread is the resuming of the same program as times PAST.

But John said “the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”  Wouldn’t Israel understand what a lamb does?  The sins are placed onto the lamb and then the lamb is sacrificed?

“…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like siler or gold from your futile way of life … but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.” (1 Peter 1:18-19)

“…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin… for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn’t this pointing back to Isa. 53?

So, Israel is redeemed by Jesus (the Lamb) taking on their sins and the sins of the world.  Won’t the future trib. saints be aware of this?

With regard to your comment about 'rather throw up than be too thin....."     Nooooooo....God wants you to learn PATIENCE. We live in a world where we want things INSTANTANEOUSLY or we tend to throw a  tantrum. We need to wean ourselves from this very unattractive mindset. It is seen as cute in little babies, but in adults it is not something we want, as believers , to cultivate. Since God has made it clear that HE will determine the way and the timing for each individual to grow, and that it depends on STUDY...then as we trust Him to reveal things as we need them, HE will cause us to grow in GRACE. We must take a good look at what a "demanding type of attitude" says about US...gulp...and I include myself here right with ya   God is the ONE setting the standards by which we learn, AND the pace as well. NO one will get this overnight. There are things that you must nail down FIRST...before all the other things become crystal clear. If there was a shortcut to this, I would probably show you my true self and KNOCK YOU DOWN  to secure the FIRST place in line. Its true! 

So, don't make yourself sick.  Continue asking questions, but examine yourself so that your "impatience" doesn't become an obstacle to your full potential towards learning. The things that don't "make sense" yet, put them on a shelf and as you study, you will be amazed at how those things will fall into place so easily. This is the voice of experience talking here....and any seasoned grace believer will tell you exactly the same thing.

I missed the post office this morning...got up too late..so will mail your package out on Monday.....wheeeeeeeeeeee!

Great!

[Christine]

But John said “the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”  Wouldn’t Israel understand what a lamb does?  The sins are placed onto the lamb and then the lamb is sacrificed?

Israel understood the sacrificial system, yes. But do WE? God set up the sacrificial system as a shadow of the reality of Christ coming to be the sacrificial lamb. Israel wanted a CONQUERING HERO, not a suffering servant. It is obvious that Israel didn't understand what had happened because they didn't recognize Jesus AS the LAMB that God provided. That was the whole problem. They, as a NATION, were in UNBELIEF.

“…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life … but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.” (1 Peter 1:18-19)

“…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin… for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn’t this pointing back to Isa. 53?

Peter understood these things, yes. Keep in mind that Hebrews thru Revelation is written with the KINGDOM saints in mind in ages to COME.  This includes 1 and 2 Peter.

Did Israel in times PAST understand about the death , burial and resurrection? Lets let scripture answer that for us: (Remember, God has already told us that this information was KEPT SECRET until revealed to Paul)

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

So, Israel is redeemed by Jesus (the Lamb) taking on their sins and the sins of the world.  Won’t the future trib. saints be aware of this?

Israel has yet to receive her redemption. They will be redeemed IF they endure to the end. Their redemption is not yet a finished deal as their program has still got ONE COURSE of curses to go before its over. They are still, as a NATION , waiting for their redemption. They are still IN UNBELIEF.

For any jew to know salvation NOW as a personal possession, they must come to the Cross. Today there is no national distinction, but jew and gentile come to God APART from any distinction or favored status with God, and apart from the law of Moses.

The Tribulation saints will come to God not based on the Cross, but on the law program that God will resume with Israel. They will come to God thru the Nation Israel, as she will again be the channel of blessing in ages to Come.

Gods plan of Grace thru the Cross will not be what saves people in the Tribulation. That program will END as soon as we, who are the church , the Body of Christ , are raptured. Gods timeclock with Israel will resume with the fifth course of curses at that time.

You should be focusing on getting the divisions made clear in your mind.

Times PAST/ Gen. thru Acts / God dealing with the Nation Israel thru the law of Moses and Prophecy.

But NOW/  Romans thru Philemon / God dealing with the church which is His Body thru GRACE and the MYSTERY truths given to Paul.

Ages to COME / Hebrews thru Revelation / God again resuming His program with Israel thru the law of Moses and Prophecy.

[LookingUp]

But John said “the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”  Wouldn’t Israel understand what a lamb does?  The sins are placed onto the lamb and then the lamb is sacrificed?

Israel understood the sacrificial system, yes. But do WE? God set up the sacrificial system as a shadow of the reality of Christ coming to be the sacrificial lamb. Israel wanted a CONQUERING HERO, not a suffering servant. It is obvious that Israel didn't understand what had happened because they didn't recognize Jesus AS the LAMB that God provided. That was the whole problem. They, as a NATION, were in UNBELIEF.

“…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life … but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.” (1 Peter 1:18-19)

“…and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross so that we might die to sin… for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).  Isn’t this pointing back to Isa. 53?

Peter understood these things, yes. Keep in mind that Hebrews thru Revelation is written with the KINGDOM saints in mind in ages to COME.  This includes 1 and 2 Peter.

Did Israel in times PAST understand about the death , burial and resurrection? Lets let scripture answer that for us: (Remember, God has already told us that this information was KEPT SECRET until revealed to Paul)

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

So, Israel is redeemed by Jesus (the Lamb) taking on their sins and the sins of the world.  Won’t the future trib. saints be aware of this?

Israel has yet to receive her redemption. They will be redeemed IF they endure to the end. Their redemption is not yet a finished deal as their program has still got ONE COURSE of curses to go before its over. They are still, as a NATION , waiting for their redemption. They are still IN UNBELIEF.

For any jew to know salvation NOW as a personal possession, they must come to the Cross. Today there is no national distinction, but jew and gentile come to God APART from any distinction or favored status with God, and apart from the law of Moses.

The Tribulation saints will come to God not based on the Cross, but on the law program that God will resume with Israel. They will come to God thru the Nation Israel, as she will again be the channel of blessing in ages to Come.

Gods plan of Grace thru the Cross will not be what saves people in the Tribulation. That program will END as soon as we, who are the church , the Body of Christ , are raptured. Gods timeclock with Israel will resume with the fifth course of curses at that time.

You should be focusing on getting the divisions made clear in your mind.

Times PAST/ Gen. thru Acts / God dealing with the Nation Israel thru the law of Moses and Prophecy.

But NOW/  Romans thru Philemon / God dealing with the church which is His Body thru GRACE and the MYSTERY truths given to Paul.

Ages to COME / Hebrews thru Revelation / God again resuming His program with Israel thru the law of Moses and Prophecy.

I don't think I'm having trouble with times past.  It’s ages to come (trib) that I'm confused about.  I realize the little flock (representing the believing remnant of the nation) didn't understand until AFTER Jesus died that He was the Lamb to be sacrificed and redeem Israel through His death [that is what the lamb does].  But trib. saints will have this info. from the scriptures.

Before Christ's death - faith was in believing He was the Messiah & King (kingdom at hand) [times past - Law of Moses]
After Christ's death - faith was in believing He was Messiah, King and Lamb of God (kingdom offered) [times - Law of Christ or kingdom law]  The kingdom law is different than the law of Moses, right?
Trib. Saints - same as above??

MK - kingdom ushered in, holy spirit given to national Israel, law written on their hearts & gentiles come to Lord through Israel

[Christine]

I don't think I'm having trouble with times past.  It’s ages to come (trib) that I'm confused about.  I realize the little flock (representing the believing remnant of the nation) didn't understand until AFTER Jesus died that He was the Lamb to be sacrificed and redeem Israel through His death [that is what the lamb does].  But trib. saints will have this info. from the scriptures.

Here is the source of your confusion. Although they didn't understand that He was the lamb of God, that WAS NOT what God asked THEM to believe. Read this again. They understood NOT the issue of the death, burial and resurrection.

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

THAT (his death on the Cross as the means by which He would save the world)  was kept SECRET...it had to be, or satan would have realized the critical issue and would never have crucified the LORD OF GLORY.

Tribulation saints will have the information with regard to His death, burial and resurrection, however, that program will not be in operation, and THEY will be held to what God asked ISRAEL to believe....which was that He was the promised MESSIAH, that they should GET BACK TO THE LAW (repent) and be water baptized, enduring to the end.

You see the same situation exists today. We gentiles SEE what God intended for the Nation Israel to believe when we study it, however, this information is NOT the information that WE, under this present program, are asked to believe. The information that saves in this program is only FOUND in this program. We can KNOW about Gods program with Israel, but that information is NOT OUR INFORMATION in this present dispensation.

Switch it around. Israel will KNOW what the age of GRACE is all about because they will have the completed scriptures. However, God will have CLOSED that program and will again be under the law of MOSES as HE is completing His program with THEM. It begins with the TRIBULATION .

Before Christ's death - faith was in believing He was the Messiah & King (kingdom at hand) [times past - Law of Moses]
After Christ's death - faith was in believing He was Messiah, King and Lamb of God (kingdom offered) [times  - Law of Christ or kingdom law]  The kingdom law is different than the law of Moses, right?
Trib. Saints - same as above??

You are making this harder than it is. I don't understand your question.

God never asked them to trust in His death, burial and resurrection under their Kingdom program.

The KINGDOM is the same as the law of Moses. The KINGDOM gospel IS the law of Moses.

Tribulation saints will be under the law of Moses and will be required to come to God THRU the Nation of Israel. The 144,000 Jews raised up to preach the gospel will be preaching the law of Moses to the nations. Just as they were to do had they believed as a NATION before God SET THEM ASIDE.

You need to focus on other things until you are able thru study to see how this all fits together. You won't see it on your own, as I know I didn't until someone, thru a systematic study of how Israels program works, lays it out in scripture for you. This is one of those things that you don't need to fully understand NOW, just get the basic concept down of TIMES PAST, and AGES to COME having to do with God dealing with the Nation Israel, and BUT NOW being this present dispensation.

I know this will drive you nuts but there simply is no other way that all this information will become clear but thru STUDY.

 

[MaricoG]

Incredible posts....I learned a lot from reading them....the questions and the answers.

One thing that hit my heart is this:

I don’t know any.  I’m on my own

.

I will PM you Julie....you are not on your own anymore my dear friend.  We are in great company here, with Grace Teachers Ministries,  and the Lord will keep us. 

The Pal talk is easy, and I have been to two studies now that were incredible.  Pastor Cole talks pretty fast, but he makes his points with Scripture so very well, that one can follow and understand.  If you have a question, it is easy to ask when it is over, but I sure suggest writing it down when it comes up, as everything keeps moving! 

Love and hugs,
Mari

[LookingUp]

Incredible posts....I learned a lot from reading them....the questions and the answers.

One thing that hit my heart is this:

I don’t know any.  I’m on my own

.

I will PM you Julie....you are not on your own anymore my dear friend.  We are in great company here, with Grace Teachers Ministries,  and the Lord will keep us. 

The Pal talk is easy, and I have been to two studies now that were incredible.  Pastor Cole talks pretty fast, but he makes his points with Scripture so very well, that one can follow and understand.  If you have a question, it is easy to ask when it is over, but I sure suggest writing it down when it comes up, as everything keeps moving! 

Love and hugs,
Mari

Thanks Mari!  Hugs!  Wow!  I'm pretty excited about the study!  I'll see you then.

[Christine]

Here is an excellent response made by Ken from another site that answered the question really well....



Hi goinupRU,

I guess I was the one that started the “born again”, “new creation” discussion in this thread, since then I have settled it in my mind this way:
I see the corporate body of “Israel” as needing a rebirth or to be “born again” (Earthly)
I see the corporate “body of Christ” as a “new creation” (Heavenly)

(Peter) 1 Pe 1:23 Being “born again”, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

(Paul) 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a “new creation”; the old has gone, the new has come!

Ken.

NOTE:  Ken, this is exactly the way I have it in my mind as well. I dunno...I just happen to find the differences to be important, while some don't see it as an issue. I wouldn't go to fist fights over it, but I think the distinctions ARE there.

Thanks Ken