MIXED MESSAGES?

[Oasis]

Hi all,

The issue of spiritual gifts, miracles, faith healing, etc...can be a very sensative subject, as I have personally found in the past.  I posted this here, not because the fascination with and belief in signs and wonders is indiginous to Acts 2 believers, but because having been an Acts 2 believer for several years(Southern Baptist)before coming to rightly dividing Scripture, I have been amazed how many in mainstream denominations embrace this thinking.  As I see more and more blurring of the lines between Law and Grace by Acts 2 and other professing Christians, it does become easier to see how they fall into this way of thinking.  Les Feldick calls it "blenderizing" Scripture. 

From my own study I am convicted that signs and wonders were for the nation of Israel; that miracles, healings, etc...by man have ceased in this dispensation; but that they will be used once again in the Tribulation when the focus returns to the nation of Israel and the kingdom gospel.   

The following story is from another website and was posted by a practicing Southern Baptist who was once caught up in a religious cult.  If memory serves me correctly, the time that this person was "given" these words was when they were still in this cult. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Everyone,
I am so thrilled I can barely type this. I want to tell you what happened today, but first I need to fill in a little history.

Most of you will remember that I posted a long time ago about a song I was given by The Holy Spirit, AND about how surprised I was, being a Southern Baptist!
I am still a Southern Baptist.

I was at an extremely low point in my life and I was praying, pouring my heart out to God when I recieved the beautiful song. It sounded like spanish to me, so I got in touch with a friend who speaks spanish and sang it for her, she was moved to tears by it because she KNEW I can't speak spanish. This has only happened once, but the miracle BLESSINGS of this precious little song just never end.

I have been able to sing it for many people now and I am always blessed each time to see the wonder and joy in their faces.

I am told that it is hard to translate it into english, but I will post the most common translation I usually get:

Yes, I have encountered and drank of Your love
You love me, I love you, I open my heart to You

Yes, I have encountered and drank of Your love
You love me, I love You, I am in love with You

Christ, Christ is the Heart, is the Heart You're beautiful
Christ, Christ is the heart, is The Heart Beautiful

The melody is just so beautiful I can't describe it.

This happened in 1997, and it is still a joy to me!!!!!

Now, for todays miracle.

I have a member of my family who I have peen praying for. I don't know if this family member is saved. I have witnessed to him and told him about witnessing online for the Lord. I have filled him in on many things which have happened over the years. While he listens to me, I have never felt that he was ready to take the step he needs to take and get on his knees to pray the sinners prayer. I told him several months ago about the song the Lord gave me. I think he believed me in a way, but it did not have the effect I had hoped it would.

This family member has become very good friends with a neighbor, and the neighbor has been teaching him spanish. He does not know a lot, but some. Today, out of the blue he asked me if I would sing this song for his neighbor, I jumped at the chance. He did not tell the neighbor where I got the song, only that he wanted me to sing it for her.

While I sang it she looked at me strangely and I got worried that she would be the first spanish speaking person who did not understand it. When I finished she said it was a beautiful Christian song, but she then asked me if I spoke spanish. I told her no, and she just looked at me stunned. Remember, she did not know how I learned the song, yet she said it was a miracle. I asked her why, and she said that it was impossible to have a perfect spanish accent without knowing spanish!!!!!

She just could not believe it. I asked her if she could translate it for us and she did, then she asked me where I learned it, and I told her. I just can't tell you what a beautiful moment we experienced together. My family member was stunned to say the least. This was the best witnessing tool in the world, PRAISE GOD!!!

I am always truly amazed that the Lord has blessed me so much even though I don't deserve it. I often try to think of a way to somehow bless the Lord for the way He has blessed me. 

I have a feeling of peace for my family member now. I can see the miracle the Lord worked in his life today. I now believe that this family will be reborn, so when the rapture happens he will go up with me.

I will never be able to thank Jesus enough, or praise Him enough.

I just HAD to share this with all of you. We are to encourage each other, I sure hope it encourages each of you, and blesses you.

COME SOON LORD JESUS!

What do  you think about this?  I'd like to hear some of the thoughts and convictions of those here, as we come from varying religious backgrounds. 

What is your Scriptural understanding of this?
What was the purpose for signs and wonders?
Who are signs and wonders for?
Does God do miracles and healings through men and women today?

Have a great day guys/gals!

ybiC,
Kab

[Lu]

As signs and wonders were for Israel and not us in the Dispensation of Grace, I think this is some kind of deception, perhaps from the "wiles of the devil,"  spiritual wickedness.  This might be in the line of weeping Mary statues or the Harry Potter Books where people can't see the deception unless there are grounded in the Word and have discernment. The song and his message have no mention of the DBR.


 Eph 6:10 ¶ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.


 Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


 Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].


 Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


 Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;


 Eph 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


 Eph 6:16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


 Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


 Eph 6:18  Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


 Eph 6:19  And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


imho,, YFIC,  Lu

[Christine]

Dear Oasis and Lu,

I tell ya, this kind of stuff is becoming more and more prevalent in our "religious" circles today, and it really concerns me. When viewed from a right dividing perspective, the answer is plain to see, but oh my....people will simply NOT let go of their "warm fuzzies" and "special visitations" by the Holy Spirit , will they. ....its downright sad.

I am reminded that the only time signs and wonders are mentioned in Pauls epistles is to call them LYING signs and wonders.
 2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  Things are setting up for that, by the looks of things, aren't they? Yikes

When people refuse to walk by FAITH, instead of by SIGHT, then they open themselves up to all kinds of "lying signs and wonders" that our enemy, the devil will happily provide. It is NOT a tool of sharing, or something wonderful to be used to bring people to Christ, as there is NO mention of the gospel of OUR salvation at all and only an encouragement to trust ones "feelings" which we all know is NOT Gods plan for today.

I have several friends who are caught up in this and who refuse to let go. They are afraid to simply trust in what God has said in His WORD, and to whom it applies. Satan has many "prisoners of war", and it is solely because of a failure to rightly divide.

Another interesting thing to note is...to whom does the attention get focused by these "miracles?" Is the true gospel of our salvation being preached, or is the focus the person who supposedly did something miraculous, and ascribed it to God? How does her experience "bless" anyone? Where is the truth of the gospel to be found? See how deceptive our enemy is? If we don't KNOW how he operates today, we will be taken in by every wind of doctrine and succumb to these "doctrines of devils."

Knowledge IS power...and we don't have to be put in a position to be used by our enemy if we simply do as God requests. Rightly divide the information given in the Scriptures and KNOW to whom it applies.

What do  you think about this?  I'd like to hear some of the thoughts and convictions of those here, as we come from varying religious backgrounds.

What is your Scriptural understanding of this?
What was the purpose for signs and wonders?
Who are signs and wonders for?
Does God do miracles and healings through men and women today?

Have a great day guys/gals!

ybiC,
Kab

Signs were for the sign NATION.  iSRAEL sought after signs and God gave them to her. WE, however, are to walk by FAITH in what God says He has already DONE in this dispensation of GRACE. See:

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Signs and wonders were for UNBELIEVING Israel as they demanded signs.

If you will note:

 Healing is also associated with the Nation of Israel and NOT something promised to we who are in the Body of Christ today. OUR promise is that "His grace is sufficient for all our needs" and "His power is made manifest in our weaknesses" as well as "He will work all things together for the good of those who are called according to His purpose."

God can certainly do anything He so desires, but He has made His will known to us today with regard to these things and to hold Him to promises made to another audience at another time in another dispensation is clearly NOT good Bible exegesis. It borders on superstition and assumption not backed up with scriptural support. See how important it is to KNOW what program God IS in, so that we can cooperate with Him IN IT??

[Oasis]

Lu

As signs and wonders were for Israel and not us in the Dispensation of Grace, I think this is some kind of deception, perhaps from the "wiles of the devil,"  spiritual wickedness.  This might be in the line of weeping Mary statues or the Harry Potter Books where people can't see the deception unless there are grounded in the Word and have discernment. The song and his message have no mention of the DBR.


 Eph 6:10 ¶ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.


 Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


 Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].


 Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


 Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;


 Eph 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


 Eph 6:16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


 Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


 Eph 6:18  Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;


 Eph 6:19  And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,


imho,, YFIC,  Lu

Asolutely Lu!
We don't needs signs and wonders. 
In 6:10 it says "...be strong in the Lord..."
Our strength comes from and through His Word.

ybiC,
Kab

[Oasis]

Christine

Healing is also associated with the Nation of Israel and NOT something promised to we who are in the Body of Christ today. OUR promise is that "His grace is sufficient for all our needs" and "His power is made manifest in our weaknesses" as well as "He will work all things together for the good of those who are called according to His purpose."

That's right, Christine.  Healing and Miracles were used to authenticate the messege and the messengers.

This is a portion of a response I gave last year in a thread on another board.

I believe miracles are one of the most, if not the most abused gift there is.   What is the Biblical definition of a miracle?  "I got that job!  It's a miracle!"  That is not a Biblical miracle...or you'll hear, "We won the game!  It was an absolute miracle!"  It's a word that is thrown around much too casually.  So, what is a miracle?  Well, I've found several different definitions depending on one's particular faith or lack thereof.  But among the different religious definitions there runs one common thread.  It is a supernatural intervention that has no other explanation than that God is acting.  It is obvious that only God could be responsible for it.

Why does God do miracles?  I believe Scripture tells us it is to confirm He is who He says He is, and to confirm His revelation to us.  Miracles were used to confirm the identity and deity of Jesus Christ.

"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee.  He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."-John 2:11 NIV

"...for the very works that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me."-John 5:36 NIV

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."John 20:30-31 NIV
 
I believe Scripture teaches that some of the gifts were permanent and some temporary.  Miracles are one of the temporary gifts.  Now, what do I mean by that?  Look at the limited history of its use.  In the Old Testament there was God revealing the law to Moses, and God using Elijah and Elishah to establish His prophetic revelation.  In the New Testament, miracles came through Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and those they personally commissioned.  We see in Scripture that Jesus did miracles to prove His identity as Messiah and God.  The Apostles were also given the ability to perform miracles and for a very important reason.   It was to verify their preaching.  There was, as of yet, no written Word, so these men were God's mouthpiece and the miracles were given to verify the identity of Christ and the Truth that the Apostles, and those they personally commissioned, taught.

"The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverence."-2 Corinthians 12:12 NIV

"How shall we excape if we ignore such a great salvation?  This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.  God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will"-Hebrews 2:3-4 NIV

...and what was his will?  to confirm His revelation through Jesus Christ and these apostles.  If we claim that miracles still occur today, and yet agree with Scripture that miracles were used to confirm God's revelation to man, then we are saying that the Bible is incomplete.  Once God's revelation was complete, the purpose for miracles was done.  I'm not saying that God can't and won't do miracles.  I'm saying that Scripture teaches that they were used as sign gifts for a specific period of time and for the specific purpose of confirming revelation.  It's important to note that miracles will come into use one more time in history.  When? 

"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.  These are the two olive trees nad the two lamplstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.  If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.  This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.  These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."-Revelation 11:3-6 NIV

One interesting thing I've learned in reading is that for years after the New Testament Church was established no miracles appeared...until the beginning of Roman Catholicism.  All the sudden they were everywhere.  Hmmmmm???  I guess God was showing the Roman church was the one true church and they would present His new revelation, huh?  I don't think so.  But check out some of these that were claimed by the Roman Catholics.

* In 415 the bones of Stephen were found. The bones were moved to Africa, and everywhere they went, miracles happened.

* A merchant in one town stole the arm of John the Baptist, which had been preserved in a shrine. As long as he kept it in his closet, he became rich; but when somebody found it and took it away, he became a beggar.

* In the early years of the forming of the Roman Church, Christians preserved feather droppings that supposedly came from the wings of Gabriel when he came to announce the birth of Jesus to Mary.

* Pilgrim monks boasted that they had been to Jerusalem and seen the real finger of the Holy Spirit.

* The churches of the saints Cosmas and Damien at Rome exhibited a miracle-working vial of the breast milk of the virgin Mary. This became such a popular miracle worker that many churches in France had bottles of Mary's breast milk to do miracles. They even said that this wasn't necessarily the milk which the virgin used to nourish the infant, but that she, through all the ages, had continued to nourish her children in times of deadly need. Even her statues and paintings would give milk at certain times to certain saints.

* Bernard of Clairvaux said that he was rewarded for his holy life by Mary visiting him in his cell and letting his lips be moistened by the food of the heavenly child.

* Many people have stigmatizations -- the signs of the cross showing up in their hands and feet and bleeding, much like St. Francis claimed.

* One saint, Pantaleon, had drunk so much of Mary's milk in his life that when he died they cut him open and out of his veins came blood and milk. They caught it in a vial, and the blood and milk would switch places each year. When the blood was on top, the country had a bad year; and when the milk was on top, it had a good year.

* Supposed apparitions of Mary have occurred all over the world at places like Guadeloupe and Lourdes. There are great shrines of Mary everywhere.

Pretty ridiculous stuff huh?  This kind of thing continues today, and are just as foolish.  Paul said,
"We live by faith, not by sight."-2 Corinthians 5:7 NIV

Counterfeit miracles continue.  Miracles were used to confirm God's Revelation.  God's Revelation is finished.  There is no more reason for miracles until the next appointed time in God's plan for us.

Have a great day!

ybiC,
Kab

[Christine]

Kab said:

Counterfeit miracles continue.  Miracles were used to confirm God's Revelation.  God's Revelation is finished.  There is no more reason for miracles until the next appointed time in God's plan for us.

Aaaaaaamen. Amazing how God tells us straight out what to expect in this age of GRACE, but people simply REFUSE to listen and try holding Him to  promises He never made to THEM.

[Oasis]

Yep, Christine! 
Throw the Scripture in a blender and out comes a bunch of gobbledeguk!...as Les would say.

ybiC,
Kab

[Christine]

Yep, Christine! 
Throw the Scripture in a blender and out comes a bunch of gobbledeguk!...as Les would say.

ybiC,
Kab

Amen, kab...heres something that should be made into a bumper sticker for the "religious, but uninformed".....tehe




Or how about this one:



Giggling on my way to my first cup of morning coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee