Are the Pentecostal "SIGNS" being restored? by Cornelius Stam

[Christine]

Are the Pentecostal Signs Being Restored?
By Cornelius R. Stam

With convincing "signs and wonders" being wrought all about us in increasing numbers, some are being carried away from the truths so clearly set forth for our day in the epistles of Paul.

Some have concluded from these "supernatural manifestations" that toward the close of this present dispensation we may expect a revival of the divine gifts of tongues, healing, etc.

As to healing, may we first point out that no instructed believer in Pauline truth questions that God can and often does heal the sick and infirm as, for example, in the case of Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25-27). We believe too that God is constantly working miracles. But we deny that healers and miracle workers, or that signs and miraculous demonstrations, have any part in God's program for today.

First, the apostle did not say in I Corinthians 13:8 that the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge would be done away until the closing days of the dispensation. He simply declared that these miraculous manifestations were to be done away (i.e., In this new dispensation), and that "faith, hope and love" would "abide" (Ver. 13). Nor is there any indication in the Pauline epistles that the Pentecostal signs are to be restored at the close of this dispensation.

The apostle does declare, however, that after the close of the dispensation of grace, the "man of sin" will appear "with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:9). In this the apostle confirms what our Lord says in Matthew 24:24 about the same period of time:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

During the "tribulation period," then, after the members of the Body of Christ have been "caught up" to be with the Lord, the ministers of Satan, from Antichrist down, will come with "all power and signs and lying wonders," to deceive, if possible, "the very elect."

But now let us see how this affects us today.

In the very same passage about Antichrist and his "power, and signs, and lying wonders," the apostle warns that

"...the mystery of iniquity doth already work..." (II Thes. 2:7).

What does all this tell us about the multiplied miraculous manifestations we are seeing all about us as the days grow darker: tongues, healing, prophecies, ESP, witchcraft, spiritism, exorcism, etc., not to mention false doctrine? Obviously it tells us that these are not of God, but of Satan.

A wondrous manifestation is to some the end of all argument. So-and-so must be of God or he could not work these miracles! But the above passages from the Scriptures tell us differently. Satan has power. He can work wonders, but he does so to deceive men and draw them away from the truth of God's glorious purpose and grace.

Indeed, the apostle, in I Timothy 4:1, issues a stern warning to this effect:

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,1 giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils [demons]."

This is why the apostle rightly urges all believers:

"Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness [wicked spirits] in high [heavenly] places" (Eph. 6:11,12).

Be not deceived. Satan is not a grotesque creature with horns, hooves, a tail and a pitchfork. He inspired that caricature to draw attention away from himself, for when the apostle warns of "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apos-tles of Christ" (II Cor. 11:13), he adds:

"And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness..." (Vers. 14,15).

There you have it! If Satan did appear as men portray him, the multitudes would flee from him. But "an angel of light" with "ministers of righteousness"! This attracts the unwary.

But here is one who is stricken with some deadly disease. He is taken to a healing meeting and, seemingly at least, is completely restored. Can this possibly be of Satan?

Why not? Besides all his other powers, is it not he that inflicts sickness and disease? Think of the case of Job. Did not God permit Satan to bring Job to the point of death, physically (Job 2:4-9)? Think of Paul himself. Was it not "a messenger of Satan" who was sent to "buffet" him until he cried again and again for deliverance (II Cor. 12:7,8)? And is it not clearly stated in Hebrews 2:14 that for the pres-ent Satan has "the power of death"?

If it is Satan, then, who inflicts sickness and disease, why cannot Satan stop inflicting them? Why can he not—why would he not, withdraw the illness he has inflicted if this will cause you to center your interest on the wrong thing, and cause you to walk by sight, rather than by faith?

We specially mention bodily healing because most people are attracted and convinced by this sort of supernatural demonstration. But the physical healings under our Lord's earthly ministry and at Pentecost were "signs." Signs of what? They were signs of the Messiahship of Christ. Had He been accepted as King, all those thus healed would have gone into the prophesied kingdom, where sickness and disease would never again overtake them.

This is not so today, for the King and His kingdom have been rejected, and the reign of Christ on earth now awaits a future day. Thus it is that those who are "healed," all finally die like the rest. Though "healed" again and again, there always comes that last time when nothing avails.

One of the saddest aspects of the modern healing campaign is the long, sad trail of disillusionment and shaken faith it leaves behind. Some are not healed at all, and even those who are "healed" finally come to "that last time" when Hebrews 9:27 is fulfilled, for "it is appointed unto men once to die."

What a list could be made of all those who once sincerely preached that it was a lack of faith, a sin, not to claim and expect from God a strong, sound body, yet they themselves all died. After the long list of the greatest of all these "healers" could be copied those familiar words from Genesis 5: "and he died...and he died...and he died"!

Pastor J. C. O'Hair rightly said that despite the claims of all the Christian Scientists, the Roman Catholics, the Pentecostalists, and all the other "healing" folk, the death rate still remains one apiece.

How much better, then, to walk by faith and leave ourselves in His loving hands to do as He sees is best for us?

Thus we beg our Christian readers not to be carried away with amazing demonstrations that can only beguile us to take our eyes off Him. Rather let us heed the Spirit's exhortation through Paul:

"Be careful2 for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God.

"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Phil. 4:6,7).

Endnotes

1. Obviously, "the faith" he had proclaimed, hence "the latter times" of this "dispensation of the grace of God" (Eph. 3:1-3).

2. "care full," or anxious.

Taken From the Berean Searchlight August 1998

[Lu]

I'd like to caution people that deceitful workers are not always those up on stage healing many.
There are chiropractors that are new age and you need to find that out before you go to them. My experience, I guess you could call spiritual warfare. I was praying  so much inside my head when she was working on my back, she actually had a allergic reaction. Berit Kojos had an article about this that I happened to read, where she had the same experience. Why were Berit and praying so much..... because something didn't seem right.  So, beware folks, things aren't always as they seem. There are many bad things out there these days.

[Oasis]

Lu

So, beware folks, things aren't always as they seem. There are many bad things out there these days.

Aint that the truth, Lu!  Makes me wanta go hide in the mountains!   

What bothers me most about all this is that I see professing Christians right and left falling for all this gobbledeguk.  We fellowshipped with the Southern Baptists for several years and we know many of them that believe in signs, wonders, miracles, etc...poppycock!  It seems like nobody reads their Bibles anymore unless it's a religious holiday or they get into a discussion/debate with another Christian and they need to use a few verses out of context they've been indoctrinated with.  Satan has many to deceive and he knows his time is short.  By the looks of the world and even professing Christians around us, Satan's workin' overtime!

[MaricoG]

Aint that the truth, Lu!  Makes me wanta go hide in the mountains!

 

Hey Kab, I AM hiding in the mountains...LOL

Great topic.

Great article by R.C. Stam! 

I agree about Chiropractors and also Massage Therapists today too...so many are into the New Age practices, and I don't like them "breathing" over  me when they are done!  It does give us a chance to witness the Lord to them, though.   

I would like to ask what you would say to a Christian, who is not a grace believer, but believes in healings today....and believes they have seen them and experienced healing.  What do you say to them?

Thanks in advance...because while I do not believe in this for today, I know people who do, and I don't know what to say to them when they say they have been healed....

Also...might as well add that another believes she has seen Jesus and also angels.  I believe she has been tricked, but I don't know how to convince her that is the case.  Any suggestions or recommendations?

Love,
Mari

P.S.  Hi Christine!

[Lu]

Oh, boy... I don't know what to say to them, either.  Not that I haven't been racking my brain about it for a long time.  It's a big job to change what someone believes.  It seldom happens.
Any ideas, Christine?

[Christine]

One has to be open to truth and not just enmeshed in what their particular denominational party line feeds to them. If they are open, you can simply GIVE them a copy of such an article as was printed here. Let them think about it. Their initial response will probably be to get angry with you...so DON'T expect to change anyones mind...thats NOT your job. OUR job is to present the truth. What THEY do with it is THEIR responsibility.

Most who are caught up in this kind of foolishness have never had anyone care enough to give them REAL information. Step out in faith and BE an AMBASSADOR with the truth contained in many of the articles placed here for YOUR use...PRINT them out and mail them to your charismatic friends. Ask them to tell you what they think . They may say NOTHING...but the truth has been delivered.

Whaddaya think?

[Oasis]

Those are great suggestions Christine.

Mari

I would like to ask what you would say to a Christian, who is not a grace believer, but believes in healings today....and believes they have seen them and experienced healing.  What do you say to them?

Thanks in advance...because while I do not believe in this for today, I know people who do, and I don't know what to say to them when they say they have been healed....

Also...might as well add that another believes she has seen Jesus and also angels.  I believe she has been tricked, but I don't know how to convince her that is the case.  Any suggestions or recommendations?

Mari, I would use one or more of Christine's suggestions.  I can provide some posts I've made concerning this subject.  They were met with some resistance by all but one person.  These posts are from the Lawton site I told you about where my right dividing convictions hit a brick wall.  Christine, Jeremy Lucas and a few others posted on this site and witnessed the childish way folks, even Acts 2 dispensationalists, can react when encouraged to leave their Scriptural comfort zone. 

You may already have some of this teaching, but I'll post them in case you don't.  I'll put one at a time in each post here.  One thing you'll see throughout is that I laid the foundation for what defines a miracle, and defining Apostles, prophets and their role in Scripture.  It was my intention to cover all the spiritual gifts in this thread on Lawton, but it got to the point where nobody was participating, because most there believe in signs and wonders today.  These are mainly Southern Baptists and Calvary Chapel folks too.  I was very surprised.  Anyway, ere's the first one concerning miracles.   

David

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I try to be careful when referring to things of the Holy Spirit.  He is oftentimes referred to in such a way that many in Christendom forget that He is a Person of the Godhead.  He is referred to as a thing or as some power that emanates from Heaven when God chooses to send "it."  (Doesn't that have a "Star Wars" ring to?  Remember "the force?")  I am amazed at how many don't seem to believe the words of Christ when He said that He was sending the Comforter.

I agree David.  Because of this view by many of the Holy Spirit being nothing more than some ethereal blob, I believe Christians underate and undermine the work He was sent to do, and the power He has to work within each of us. 

There is much we can learn about the Holy Spirit and Spiritual gifts.  I never gave it much thought up until a few years ago, when my study intensified out of concern for the abuse of the gifts I coninually see around me.  I think it's important to understand the Biblical definition and application of these gifts; who they were given to; qualifications of the user; why some were temporary and some permanent; qualifications for an Apostle and prophet; etc...

I believe miracles are one of the most, if not the most abused gift there is.   What is the Biblical definition of a miracle?  "I got that job!  It's a miracle!"  That is not a Biblical miracle...or you'll hear, "We won the game!  It was an absolute miracle!"  It's a word that is thrown around much too casually.  So, what is a miracle?  Well, I've found several different definitions depending on one's particular faith or lack thereof.  But among the different religious definitions there runs one common thread.  It is a supernatural intervention that has no other explanation than that God is acting.  It is obvious that only God could be responsible for it.

Why does God do miracles?  I believe Scripture tells us it is to confirm He is who He says He is, and to confirm His revelation to us.  Miracles were used to confirm the identity and deity of Jesus Christ.

"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee.  He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."-John 2:11 NIV

"...for the very works that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me."-John 5:36 NIV

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."John 20:30-31 NIV
 
I believe Scripture teaches that some of the gifts were permanent and some temporary.  Miracles are one of the temporary gifts.  Now, what do I mean by that?  Look at the limited history of its use.  In the Old Testament there was God revealing the law to Moses, and God using Elijah and Elishah to establish His prophetic revelation.  In the New Testament, miracles came through Jesus Christ, the Apostles, and those they personally commissioned.  We see in Scripture that Jesus did miracles to prove His identity as Messiah and God.  The Apostles were also given the ability to perform miracles and for a very important reason.   It was to verify their preaching.  There was, as of yet, no written Word, so these men were God's mouthpiece and the miracles were given to verify the identity of Christ and the Truth that the Apostles, and those they personally commissioned, taught.

"The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverence."-2 Corinthians 12:12 NIV

"How shall we excape if we ignore such a great salvation?  This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.  God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will"-Hebrews 2:3-4 NIV

...and what was his will?  to confirm His revelation through Jesus Christ and these apostles.  If we claim that miracles still occur today, and yet agree with Scripture that miracles were used to confirm God's revelation to man, then we are saying that the Bible is incomplete.  Once God's revelation was complete, the purpose for miracles was done.  I'm not saying that God can't and won't do miracles.  I'm saying that Scripture teaches that they were used as sign gifts for a specific period of time and for the specific purpose of confirming revelation.  It's important to note that miracles will come into use one more time in history.  When? 

"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.  These are the two olive trees nad the two lamplstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.  If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.  This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.  These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."-Revelation 11:3-6 NIV

One interesting thing I've learned in reading is that for years after the New Testament Church was established no miracles appeared...until the beginning of Roman Catholicism.  All the sudden they were everywhere.  Hmmmmm???  I guess God was showing the Roman church was the one true church and they would present His new revelation, huh?  I don't think so.  But check out some of these that were claimed by the Roman Catholics.

* In 415 the bones of Stephen were found. The bones were moved to Africa, and everywhere they went, miracles happened.

* A merchant in one town stole the arm of John the Baptist, which had been preserved in a shrine. As long as he kept it in his closet, he became rich; but when somebody found it and took it away, he became a beggar.

* In the early years of the forming of the Roman Church, Christians preserved feather droppings that supposedly came from the wings of Gabriel when he came to announce the birth of Jesus to Mary.

* Pilgrim monks boasted that they had been to Jerusalem and seen the real finger of the Holy Spirit.

* The churches of the saints Cosmas and Damien at Rome exhibited a miracle-working vial of the breast milk of the virgin Mary. This became such a popular miracle worker that many churches in France had bottles of Mary's breast milk to do miracles. They even said that this wasn't necessarily the milk which the virgin used to nourish the infant, but that she, through all the ages, had continued to nourish her children in times of deadly need. Even her statues and paintings would give milk at certain times to certain saints.

* Bernard of Clairvaux said that he was rewarded for his holy life by Mary visiting him in his cell and letting his lips be moistened by the food of the heavenly child.

* Many people have stigmatizations -- the signs of the cross showing up in their hands and feet and bleeding, much like St. Francis claimed.

* One saint, Pantaleon, had drunk so much of Mary's milk in his life that when he died they cut him open and out of his veins came blood and milk. They caught it in a vial, and the blood and milk would switch places each year. When the blood was on top, the country had a bad year; and when the milk was on top, it had a good year.

* Supposed apparitions of Mary have occurred all over the world at places like Guadeloupe and Lourdes. There are great shrines of Mary everywhere.

Pretty ridiculous stuff huh?  This kind of thing continues today, and are just as foolish.  Paul said,
"We live by faith, not by sight."-2 Corinthians 5:7 NIV

As Sandra's title to this thread testifies, counterfeit miracles continue.  Miracles were used to confirm God's Revelation.  God's Revelation is finished.  There is no more reason for miracles until the next appointed time in God's plan for us.

[Oasis]

This post is in response to notreligus(David).

Re: Is There A Counterfeit Holy Spirit?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 12:15:46 AM » 

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Hi David,

Sandra's post covered everything, but I'd like to add a few personal thoughts and questions for you. 

David

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I have been disappointed to read that some dispensationalists, like C.R. Stam, agree that the when the canon of Scripture was complete then miracles were no longer necessary.  That is a belief shared with those such as in the Church of Christ who feel that the "perfect" that has come is the completed canon.  This is a post-printing press view.  I'll never accept that as long as I can draw a breath.  I refuse to put God in a box and put limits on Him.
Why does God do miracles David?  Remember what I posted earlier?

Kab

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Why does God do miracles?  I believe Scripture tells us it is to confirm He is who He says He is, and to confirm His revelation to us.  Miracles were used to confirm the identity and deity of Jesus Christ.

"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee.  He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."-John 2:11 NIV

"...for the very works that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me."-John 5:36 NIV

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."John 20:30-31 NIV
Yes, God's character is immutable, but the way He has chosen to reveal Himself to us has changed throughout Scripture.  Miracles were for one purpose.  To confirm His Revelation. 

David

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I have been disappointed to read that some dispensationalists, like C.R. Stam, agree that the when the canon of Scripture was complete then miracles were no longer necessary.  That is a belief shared with those such as in the Church of Christ who feel that the "perfect" that has come is the completed canon.  This is a post-printing press view.  I'll never accept that as long as I can draw a breath.  I refuse to put God in a box and put limits on Him.
Why are miracles necessary now, David? 
What other purpose besides what's in Scripture is there?

David

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If I come across as being a bit alarmed by some comments I've read in this thread, it's because I am.  Christ said Himself that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the one unforgiveable sin.  I've heard the alternative explanations of what that is "supposed" to mean.  I think He was rather clear.  When we see the miraculous and we are too quick to either assign it to the Devil or to take away the the Holy Spirit's role because there's not some Apostle alive today, I think that is asking to be counted as a blasphemer.  IMHO, the best option when we are not sure about it, is to just say we are unsure or, better yet, not say anything at all.
Sandra answered this in her post.  I will add that 1 John 4:1 says we are to test the Spirits.  I have given no indication that I am unsure about what Scripture says about this, so I have no reason to be silent.

David

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I am troubled by what I see in Christendom today.  Satan seems to get more glory than God.
David, I too am troubled by what I see today.  You're right.  Satan does get more glory than God from people.  That's why there will be only a remnant saved.

David

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Just because we are warned about false teachers and false prophets, that does not mean that we are to dismiss anything that seems to be of the supernatural as being of the Devil.  Having said that, I am not pointing fingers in this forum.  I have a life beyond this forum and have dialogue with many others of the Christian faith who have been so indoctrinated to believe that anything that seems out of the ordinary to the human mind must be of the Devil.  The Bible tells me, and the Holy Spirit urges me, to give thanks and praise to God Almighty through the name of HIs Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to magnify Satan.  Satan is the God of this world.  He is not my God.  Solomon said that God is so big that even Heaven cannot contain Him.  Satan is a puny little twerp.
I've seen nothing from anyone here that leads me to believe that they would assign anything that is supernatural only to the Devil.  But I will not trade Scripture for experience in my Christian walk.  If any experience we have cannot be verified by Scripture then we are to treat it as from Satan.  Sandra's closing thought was to the point.  She said,

Sandra

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We must be careful and discerning not only for ourselves, but for those who hear us as well. I am not a blasphemer, I am simply following God's instructions to compare everything to His Word and discard what is false.

Have a great day, David!

[Oasis]

This post was made a few months before me and the folks at Lawton had our parting of the ways.

Re: Is There A Counterfeit Holy Spirit?
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2007, 12:42:17 AM » 

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Good morning all,

I was reading in 1 John yesterday and it made me aware of how blessed I have been on many levels.  You guys/gals are one of those "levels".  My reasons for discussing this issue and many other issues on this board is to study and learn with you, and to share with and edify one another, in order to better apply God's will in my life.  In doing so, I understand that although we will not always be unified in our Scriptural convictions, we can still enjoy the blessings of being like-minded and experience some of the unity Jesus Christ intended for His Church.  Being able to openly discuss Scriptural issues and simply enjoying one anothers company has been, and continues to be priceless to me.

Alright, enough of that.  Pretty soon I'll be gettin' so sappy you'll have me suckin' lolly pops and singin' Shirley Temple tunes.

I'm pretty sure that much of what's in this thread is nothing new to many here, but I enjoy going over it and learning from the interaction.  Besides, as Les Feldick would say,
"Repeat!  Repeat!  Repeat!"
It works for me, anyway.

I thought I might make a few brief comments about the Scriptural definition, qualifications, and role of the Apostles.  In Ephesians 4:11 Paul says,
"It was he"...speaking of Jesus..."who gave some to be apostles..."
This was the first gift that Paul names.   Years ago I would have told you that an Apostleship was a gift, but it is not.  It was an official title given to certain men in order to perform special ministries.   
Look at 1 Corinthians 12:28,
"And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles..."
God Himsef appointed them.
Now, did God gift them?  Yes, by allowing them to be used supernaturally for His Glory by confirming His Revelation in order to build the foundation of the Church of which Christ is the cornerstone.  They were His mouthpiece to proclaim the Living Word.

There are other Scriptures that discuss what qualifies one as an apostle.  But, I'll just touch on this one that gives their basic qualification and role.  In 1 John 1:1-4 John said,
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.  The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.  We proclaim to you what we have seen and hear, so that you also may have fellowship with us.  And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.  We write this to make our joy complete."
An apostle was someone who heard and saw the resurrected Christ, and their role was to declare His message to others.
 
  Logged 

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THE LAW DON'T GO AROUND HERE...SAVY?!

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness-2 Timothy 3:16

[Oasis]

I hope you guys aren't experiencing glazed donut eyes syndrome.  LOL

Re: Is There A Counterfeit Holy Spirit?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2007, 12:24:08 AM » 

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Good morning all,

I have found over time that there is much to learn about the Scriptural history and applicaiton of spiritual gifts.  I think one could spend a year studying this issue and still not cover every facet of it.  Years ago when I first started hearing about spiritual gifts, I quickly became skeptical because I saw them being Scripturally abused.  I believe the gifts are misused many times due to Biblical misunderstanding, or to purposefully deceive in order to gain notoriety and/or to gain financially.  Spiritual gifts are very real, and they come from God.  Satan continuously attempts to deceive with his own counterfeit gifts, so it is imperative that we understand them and always test the spirits as John 4:1 directs us to.

I'm going to tell you something that may surprise you.

I AM A CHARISMATIC!

"What?!"  Kab, we thought you were a Southern Baptist!"

Yes, but I am a Christian first and, after all, what is a Christian? 
It is someone who has received the gift of Grace from God.
Well, what is a charismatic?
"Charis" in the Greek means, "grace".  So, a charismatic is simply one who has received the gift of Grace from God.  The reason many Christians don't want to use that term is the same reason many of us used to cross the street to avoid an Amway salesman---I did.   It is the stigma attached to the name because it has been so abused. 

So, there aren't charismatic and non-charismatic Christians.  There are only true Charismatics and non-Charismatics.


I need to clarify a few things from my earlier post.  I believe Scripture teaches that there were temporary sign gifts and that there are permanent edifying gifts.  Supernatural miracles and healings have not ceased, but man's ability to perform supernaturally ceased when those specifically designated to use them fulfilled God's purpose.  In the case of Apostles, there is only one type of "apostle" today.  We would call them messengers or church planting missionaries.  We call them this so as not to confuse them with the designated foundational Apostles.  No one fits the qualifications of the foundational Apostles.
The Apostles were those who saw the Lord while He was on earth before His ascension.
"...Am I not an apostle?  Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?"-1 Corinthians 9:1
The Lord did true signs and miracles through them to authenticate their ministries.
"The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles..."-1 corinthians 12:12
They were persecuted, with only one not being martyred for the Faith.
"For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena.  We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men"-1 Corinthians 4:9
Paul said he was the last of the foundational Apostles.
"Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."1 Corinthians 15:7-8
Their teachings are what the Church is founded on.
"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..."-Ephesians 2:20
Christ is it's cornerstone.
"...with Jesus Christ himself as the chif cornerstone"-Ephesians 2:20
We are commanded to use God's Word, through Jesus Christ, as taught us by the Apostles and Prophets for our Christian life.
"I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles."-2 Peter 3:2

I repeat, there is no one who can fit the Scriptural qualifications for being a foundational Apostle. 
Messengers?--Yes.
Church planting missionaries?--Yes.
But they are not foundational to the Church.  The Church's foundation was laid once.  It does not need to be laid again.
 
 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 11:31:55 PM by Oasis »   Logged 

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THE LAW DON'T GO AROUND HERE...SAVY?!

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness-2 Timothy 3:16

[Oasis]

Re: Is There A Counterfeit Holy Spirit?
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2007, 12:30:30 AM » 

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What is His Voice first and foremost, it is His Word. The Word of God is Living and powerful. Only those with His Spirit can understand His Voice, The Word.
Absolutely Sandra

Speaking of God's voice in his Word, let's take a look at prophets and prophecy. 

What is a prophet?  The Greek word "prophetes" means, "one who speaks out" or "speaks forth".  Now, if you're like me the first thing you think of when you hear the word "prophet" is Nostrodomus, or Al Gore(just kidding ).  Well, in reality, the word "prophet" has always been associated with the idea of one speaking forth.  They were and are God's voice in the world.

What do you think of when you hear the word "prophecy"?  You might think of statement made about the future like,
"In ten years the polar ice caps will completely melt and Greenland will become the world's largest exporter of bananas."
or
"In ten years Kab's earlobes will hang lower than they do now."
BTW, I predict that one of the above statements will come true.  Care to guess which one?

The Greek word for "prophecy" is "prophetia".  It is a word coming from "pro=before", and "phem=to speak".  "Speak before" isn't a reference to time, but means to speak before an audience; to publicly  proclaim.  The idea of prophecy being used to predict the future was an English addition to the word from the middle ages.  The Greek and Hebrews understood that prophecy simply meant to "speak publicly".  So, we know the gift of prophecy is not necessarily just revelatory or non-revelatory.  It is a communication gift.  It is the ability given by the Spirit of God to proclaim His Truth to others.  Prophets have always existed.  In the Old and New Testaments there has always been someone speaking God's Word, and the reason for prophecy was the same in both and remains the same today.  To proclaim God's Truth.

Why is prophecy so important?  Because it witnesses to both believers and non-believers.  Look at 1 Corinthians 14:3.
"But everyone who prophecies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort."
Paul is referencing believers.
Move down to verses 24-25.
"But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare.  So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Paul is speaking of the importance of prophecy over tongues for the benefit of unbelievers.

There are two ways prophecy is presented in Scripture.  One is by revelation.  It was something that had never been said; directly from God; divine revelation that became Scripture.  The second way prophecy was presented was/is by reiteration.  This is simply repeated teaching from God.  So, Scripture tells us that prophecy was not always revelatory.  Many times it was reiteration/proclamation of what had already been said.  The overall point of prophecy is given in Revelation 19:10, where the Apostle John said to an angel,
"At this I fell at his feet to worship him.  But he said to me, "Do not do it!  I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Worship God!  For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'"

Well, now you might say,
"but Kab, what about prophecy today?"
Prophecy is still going on.  People everywhere are propclaiming God's written Word.  As for those who claim to speak directly from God, we are to use Scripture to authenticate what they are saying.
The Apostle Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.
"If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.  If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored."
What is Paul saying here?  If anybody claims to be a prophet don't dismiss them out of hand, but judge them by God's Word.  In other words, if what they say agrees with Scripture, they're right; if what they say doesn't agree with Scripture, they're wrong.

There's another Scripture concerning prophecy that is often taken out of context.  Look at Romans 12:6.
"We have different gifts, according to the grace given us.  If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith."
The word proportion doesn't mean whatever amount of faith God has given each one.  It means "the measured out; the limit".  In other words, it means according to the measured out amount of the Faith.  "The Faith" being referred to in verse 6 is God's revealed Truth.  There's another reference to this in Jude 3.
"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."
We are all entrusted with God's Word.  We are to defend it and proclaim it. 

Prophecy was revelatory at one time, but based on it's own Scriptural definition it no longer is, because God's revealed Word is complete.  We have it in writing.  Non-revelatory reiteration continues through many wonderful people today and I am very thankful that there are some still faithfully proclaiming God's Word.
 
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THE LAW DON'T GO AROUND HERE...SAVY?!

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness-2 Timothy 3:16

[MaricoG]

Thanks Kab....I copied them to read and print out later.   

[Roofdad]

Okay. I guess I am going to be the one that seeks deeper meaning here, because in my KJV of the Bible, Paul does not simply say that those things would cease. In verse 10, it reads that "When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with."

Now, remember, I am no advocate of speaking in tongues, because I have had a problem with it, ever since I first started going to church with my sister, OK?

But Paul expounds even further in verse 14 about tongues, prophecying, and in particular, uninterpreted tongues as being of no use. He says, in 14:13, "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret."

He also goes on in verses 26 - 40, to instructing them in the use of these spiritual gifts, finishing in verse 39 by saying, "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. [40] Let all things be done decently and in order."

This, coming from one that has been tormented about this very subject for over a year.......

[Christine]

Darryl,

There is no deeper meaning...to cease means to be done away.

Tongues were for a purpose. That purpose was fulfilled...that all who were there of diverse languages could understand the KINGDOM gospel in their own tongue.

Remember...all the sign gifts were associated with the SIGN NATION. When God set aside the NATION , the sign gifts went with it.

We are to walk by FAITH and not by signs (or sight.)

That which is perfect is the completed word of God. Keep in mind that Paul operated in these sign gifts during the time the transition between prophecy and mystery was taking place. These sign gifts authenticated his office as an apostle, but when the full revelation of the mystery was revealed, he stopped this practice.

Tongues has no place in our walking by faith system today. It WAS however, part of Israels program.

Do NOT be tormented by a mere gift...one that has ceased. Simply believe it. It serves NO purpose today.

As you study further, this will become clear to you...I promise ya.

[Roofdad]

I believe ya, Christine. I had a blonde moment (see the color of my hair?). LOL. No, actually, my niece and I had a pretty lengthy discussion about this very subject this evening, so, imagine my surprise to find this thread here. It was in the reading of what you posted, in my Bible, that I found the rest of what I quoted, and decided to ask about it. Thanks for clearing that up!