Can We Lose Our Salvation In the Present Dispensation of Grace?

[Roofdad]

In the Pentecostal church that I attended, it was a teaching that one could definitely lose their salvation. They had many scriptures to back up their position. I have searched the Grace Teacher site for some enlightenment of this issue, but have found no results for my search. So, some study brought me to Scriptures in the book of Romans by our Apostle Paul. Does this say what I think it is saying, or can someone clear it up for me?

Romans 11, starting in verse 11:
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they shall fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
12: "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"
13: "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify my office:
14: "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." (I realize that Paul speaks here of his brethren of Israel)
15: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"
16: "For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."
17: "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18: "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."
19: "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in."
20: "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear;
21: " For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
22: "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Is this saying that we can lose our salvation? I am reading from the Full Life Study Bible, KJV.

Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

[Christine]

Yes, we have done studies on this in Paltalk and those studies should be included on the CD we mailed to you.

Romans 9-11 in context have to do with what has happened to ISRAEL.

In Todays age of GRACE, we ARE saved and SEALED UNTO the day of our redemption. Israels program was "Conditional", and ours is NOT.

They were not sealed but had to be obedient to the end for THEIR salvation. "ENDURE to the end" is Israels battle call, but NOT ours.

We are complete and SEALED into the Body of Christ.

There are many verses to substantiate that, but I am in the middle of a project and cannot stop to get them....maybe some of ouir other members can provide them for you. We have some sharp cookies here.....so I'm sure they will provide you with the scriptures which are applicable to US today.

Good question, Darryl.

[Roofdad]

Yes, I understand that these scriptures pertain to Israel. It is the scriptures starting at verse 20, that seem to be talking to us, the Gentiles.

19: "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in."
20: "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear;
21: " For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
22: "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

The natural branches here are Israel. This I do understand. But if the natural branches are Israel, then the grafted branches must mean us? For it is us that stand by faith, right?

Please allow me to quote the note on this scripture, and Christine, I will do as you do, listing page number, etc.

In the Full Life Study Bible, KJV, published by Zondervan (and changed to the Life in the Spirit Study Bible, after updates), on page 1752, note on Romans 11:22;

11:22 THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.  Paul directs a grave warning to all Gentile believers, i.e., to all Christian churches, denominations, or fellowships. (1) The terrible possibility exists that God will cast away, or "cut off" any individual, ministry, church, or group of churches, if they do not "continue in his goodness" and in the NT apostolic faith and standards of righteousness [v. 22]
(2) If God did not spare Israel, neither will he spare any particular church or fellowship [v. 21] if it rejects God's ways and conforms to the ways of this world. Therefore, all Christian churches are to "fear" [v. 20], keeping in mind both "the goodness and severity of God" and making every effort to continue in the apostolic faith and practice of the NT. No Christian church or ministry may presume with confidence that it will never fall under the judgment of God. With churches, as with individuals, "there is no respect of persons with God".

What this note seems to infer is that if God "cut off" Israel, then he would also surely "cut off" the Gentiles, likewise. I do notice, however, in verse 20, that it was for unbelief that God "cut off" Israel. I suppose that as "believers" in this dispensation of grace, it would be a foregone conclusion that among us believers, there would not be unbelief, as stated in verse 20, also: "and thou standest in faith." Am I correct in that way of thinking?

[Lu]

Our assurance is sealed -

"In whom(Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in who, also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,..." Ephesians 1:13

YFIC,  Lu

[Christine]

What Must I Do to Be Saved?


 If you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and you trust in Him for your salvation, you are saved.

 But, if you fall away, can you be saved? once you really put your trust in Christ, you can’t lose your salvation. When you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, the Holy Spirit seals your salvation so you can’t lose it. God chose the body of Christ to be holy before Him. When you trust Christ, you become a member of the Body of Christ.

 The body of Christ was chosen to be holy and blameless before God, before the foundation of the world. Because you are a member of the body of Christ, you can’t lose your salvation. That’s what it shows in Eph 1:4-14.

 Eph 1:4-14 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 Further, when you trust Christ as your savior, the Holy Spirit baptizes you into the body of Christ. So, you cannot lose your salvation.

 Rom 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 You have been told by some people, apparently, that you have to something to be kept saved. But, God keeps you because He has sealed you into the body of Christ: 1 Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free -- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 Some teach that you have to live according to God’s law to be saved. So I want to ask you this final question. Do you have to do works of the law to be saved like it says in James? Jam 1:25; 2:6-12,14,24 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 James wrote in the first verse of his epistle that it was to the 12 tribes of Israel who were scattered. God inspired the Apostle Paul to write to us Gentiles who believe, differently: Rom 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 In a similar way, God inspired Paul to write this in Gal 2:16: knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in of Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

So, what’s going on? God has two main gospels. One was given to Paul and one to Peter. That’s what it says in Gal 2:2,7-9: And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 7 . . . when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

 The circumcision gospel had conditions. The uncircumcision gospel had no conditions, just belief. Paul’s message, the uncircumcision gospel, had some secret elements. They are mentioned in Eph 3:1-9: For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

 Therefore,  we are not under the circumcision gospel. We are under grace. You are sealed if you have trusted Christ as your savior.

The ONLY persons God ever referred to as being CUT OFF from being His people are ISRAEL. Nothing in this section of scripture has anything to do with the church which is His body.

We don't find anywhere that God CUTS OFF the Body of Christ. That term is a CIRCUMCISION terms and thus belongs in Israels program.

As you study further, this will come up again and we can do the study that goes with it. Ask Pastor Cole about it in our question and answer sessions in the ONLINE study, too.

As for right now. stick with the basics of right division and all the other things you see WILL be answered thru the scriptures.

[Roofdad]

OK, Christine. I trust your understanding of the gospel. But what do the verses in Romans 11:19 -22 mean? And to whom are they addressed? If the "natural branches" are Israel, then who are they which are grafted in? I don't mean to keep going on about it, but there is a reason that I am asking.

You see, I have only missed two or three Sunday mornings, since I started attending church where my sister has been for 10 years. I told you already that I love the pastor, and my "church family"........... BUT:

As I soaked in a hot tub of water last night, I was thinking about going to church this morning. As I thought more and more about it, I began to realize something: With all of the "speaking in tongues", and laying on of hands there, they are an Acts 2 belief system church. This means that they are trying, as Gentiles, to worship God in a way that was meant for Israel, the "sign" nation. We are to walk by faith alone, and not by sight. But, since they all try to live a certain way, and attain a certain righteousness, so that they will be "filled with the Holy Ghost", as in Acts 2:4, with evidence of speaking in tongues as "proof" of that filling, then they are seeking a sign, and not walking by faith alone!
I find that I just can NOT go and sit there anymore, and hear something that I now know for what it is, I guess. I believe that when God set Israel aside, in the second half of Acts, that the "signs, wonders, and miracles" were set aside, also. So I did not go to church again, today.
My sister called, checking on me, to see what was wrong, and I told her that I had some doctrinal differences that I was having trouble with. She asked me for an example, and I told her that I did not believe that you could lose your salvation. She referenced the above mentioned scriptures. She also mentioned Gaius, whoever that is. She said there were more scriptures to back up the church's position, and she would get back with me about them.

I studied most of the day, until finally asking what I asked here. I am seriously trying to change my belief system, as I only wish the righteousness of Christ, and not my own.

As I thought about going to church last night, I was constantly reminded of a memory of about a year or so ago, when a lady at the church came up to me, and told me that God had told her that He wanted to fill me with the Holy Ghost, and could she lay hands on me, and pray. I agreed, and really, really tried to open my heart, and my mind, and believe with all my heart, and........... nothing. And I actually felt bad for HER!!

Anyway, I just want to be prepared with what I will say, when I am asked why I am no longer making it to church. I appreciate each and every one of you for the help, and the patience, for sure!
Love in Christ
Darryl

[Christine]

Hi Darryl,

I totally understand your position and frustration. The answers to give to them are NOT going to make any difference to them, and this one in particiular HAS NO three of four proof texts that will counter what they are interpreting them to mean. It involves a study, and acknowleging to whom the text refers. Paul is speaking about a remnant of Israel which no longer exists, but was never referring to the BODY church at all in this portion of scripture.

The only answer YOU have to have for this is that they are mixing up the doctrine and that OUR salvation IS secure.  We are grafted INTO Christ Himself, not into Israel, and there is NO reference of that process EVER being reversed in the MYSTERY revealed program.

You DO understand they are operating in the wrong program, however, the more serious of the issues is that they do not understand what happened at the Cross, and that eternal security is what Christ secured for us there. If there is anything WE can do or NOT do that is a threat to what Jesus secured on that Cross by saying "it is FINISHED", then we are in deep do do.

What God saves, He is perfectly capable of KEEPING saved. If anything WE do can change the work of God then what we have been offered is not salvation, but PROBATION.

This is the danger that the Acts 2 believers are dealing with. OUR salvation is a done deal. Israels was NOT, and THEY had to endure to the end to be saved.

As a new right divider, it is best to become established in the books of Eph, Colossians, and then read Ephesians AGAIN....wink. Romans is good but difficult to tie together without an established teacher to walk us thru it. You will see the answers, but as I said, it will involve a study , and not two or three verses to explain properly.

Those who believe that they can lose their salvation have a much bigger problem than we think. They are still basing their salvation on what THEY do or don't do , and are NOT trustiing the finished work of Christ as the ONLY solution that God has provided. THEIR behavior is still in the forefront, and the flesh is still looking for a way to maintain that which God has already GIVEN THEM AS A GIFT.

Galatians speaks to this:


Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Read down thru verse 11, or better yet, study the whole chapter in context. This is what THEY are doing. They started OUT trusting Christ, and now they think they can somehow maintain what God has done thru their own fleshly efforts, and if they mess up...UH OH.

That is NOT a correct understanding of what took place at the Cross. THAT is what I would deal with them on. They have what they think is a "proof text", which in actuality is NOT. Any verse yanked out of context can be used to prove ANY point.

Heres an example:

These are all verses found IN the Bible.

"Judas went out and hung himself."

"Go thou and do likewise."

"Whatsoever you do , do it QUICKLY."


Now, I know this is silly, but this is how most people study and try to understand their Bibles. Its THERE, and it must be true, and so....voila...another cult is born, or some ridiculous and dangerous new trend at the very least.

Do not allow them to control you thru the proof texts THEY provide. You are at an advantage as you already know they are operating from a program that God set aside. But they dont understand the Cross. If they think they can LOSE what Christs blood paid for ONCE and for ALL, then they do not understand salvation. It is NOT a reprieve, or something WE have to add to in order to keep it in current standing.

Be more concerned that they do NOT understand eternal security. God alone maintains what He has GIVEN to us. It is HIS LIFE, and we have been bought with a price. There is a "NO RETURN" policy with God once a soul is HIS!   Wink.

And keep in mind...until you yourself become "ESTABLISHED", you don't have to answer their questions or be on the defensive. God has told us to follow truth...and it DOES cause us to walk away from treasured friendships, comfortable churches, and oftentimes family. Truth by its very nature IS divisive.

YOU, my friend, are on the right track. God has NOT called you to be the 'bible answer man' to any of those folks, but to study YOURSELF and to become established so that you can be a good steward of the mystery revealed.

For the first three years I kept my mouth shut, and studied under those who showed me more from Gods Word than I had understood or seen in all my twenty five years of study. I focused on LEARNING the right way , as the scripture admonished me to.

There are no short cuts...if there were, I would be there pushing YOU out of line to be FIRST>>>human nature being what it is...LOL LOL.

Huuuuuugs, Darryl.

[Roofdad]

Ha ha ha ha haha!!! I love you, Christine! You have such a way with words!!! I understand now. I will surely begin studying Ephesianss and Colossians, and then Ephesians AGAIN! Thank you SOOO much for all your time and trouble, and patience, sis! I know good advice when I hear it.......

You know, even when I really knew NOTHING, I kinda had a big problem with the "tongues" thing....... Lord help them.
Love in Christ
Darryl

[NewDawn]

Isn't Christine the best!!!

Hi Darryl, I just thougth of this as I was reading the posts here.  For you to see all this and question where you came from and want to know more of the truth, shows that God is putting this in your heart to search it out. 

You know what I mean?  He is putting this desire in you for the truth.  That's how it happened to me because I was going  back and forth on what I was taught.  But then reading the threads here and listening to Trent Coles teaching, has put everything in perspective for John (husband) and I.  It's like everything fits like a puzzle, no more putting a round block in a square peg.

God is doing this in us and He wants us and as many as will see His truth, turn from all the man-made doctrine and religious traditions.  And things that keep us fearful from seeking the truth.  I believe where I came from, we were made to be kind of fearful of leaving church.  They would call those who went from church to church, spiritual grasshoppers.  That left alot feeling guilty if they stopped going.  That's how I felt.

But praise God for leading us to those who are rightly dividing the word truth!! 

God Bless!!!
Diana

[Roofdad]

Hey Diana,
I know what you mean, for I was a regular on Sunday mornings, but missed most of the Sunday evening and Wednesday evening services, with the church being 35 miles away, and I have heard pastor refer to those that were not regular, every-time-the-door-is-open attendees, as being "not very faithful". Yes, it hurts a little......

I praise God Almighty that I have found right division, and that I can now finally "enter into His rest". What a comfort, and a freedom it is to fully understand what Christ has done for us!

I searched locally, and there are NO dispensationalist churches in our area......... isn't that something? I guess everyone here is in the wrong program.............

Love in His name,
Darryl

[Blood Bought]

This is simply a wonderful board. the Lord saved me seventeen years ago, but it's been a lot of ups and downs, hits and misses, mostly all based on emotion and relying on bible teachers. And I feel jipped in a lot of ways. Looking back, it didn't have to be that way. So many doctrines, which all 'seemed' right, but I simply was never established on firm ground. It was an emotional struggle. I've always had a desire in my heart to serve God, but at the same time the feeling of Him holding a club over my head every step of the way, leaving me pretty much frozen and useless. Now it's becoming clear as to why.

I got a package today! Thanks so much for the Grace Teacher study material. Nothing intimidating, and I really feel my heart is fully open to God, starting from scratch in learning straight from His word, laying aside all my presuppositions. There's a peace here I couldn't seem to attain fully in times past.

Thanks again for the material!!! See you guys on Paltalk tonight!

[NewDawn]

Exactly Berean!!
It's like you can finally exhale and not have to feel like you're walking on egg shells for anyone.  We can be ourselves in the Lord and let Him take over as we learn and grow in Him.

God Bless Brothers!!
Diana