What did Abraham have to do or believe to be saved?

[Jujo]

We know Abraham believed God and it was counted him for righteousness...Rms 4:3. So did he have to "do" anything to stay saved? Why was he circumcised and why did he follow the law?

Jujo

[Christine]

Great Question! 

Scripture gives us the answers  and here they are:


Here is what Abraham believed to BE saved:

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Also see: Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Why was he circumcised?


Years LATER, however, God insisted that Abraham circumcise himself. Why? The Circumcision was a sign of the agreement between God and Abraham's descendants would become known as "people of the Circumcision."

Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

God had justified Abraham BEFORE circumcision. This shows that the Lord did not call for circumcision as a required MORAL deed for justification. God ADDED circumcision later (Rom. 4:11) as a sign to teach "symbolic truth" through Abrahams life.

God absolutely REQUIRED Israel to keep many symbolic commands, including circumcision.


Excerpts taken from "THE PLOT" by Bob Enyart

[Jujo]

 What happened if they (the Jewish people) didn't keep the "required" things?  Loss of salvation?

[Christine]

What happened if they (the Jewish people) didn't keep the "required" things?  Loss of salvation?

Another good question...keep em comin'!!

Circumcision was NOT optional for the Jew. God almost KILLED Moses for not circumcising his sons.

Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

Exodus 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

During this episode Moses learned firsthand the necessity of circumcision for Israelites. Moses had grown up in Pharaoh's household where no circumcision occurred. Zipporah, his Midianite wife may have strenously objected to any notion of cutting skin off their perfectly healthy newborn.   Moses seems to have given into his wife's objections and decided to forego the ritual. However, God wasn't about to let Moses get away with not circumcising his son. So God apparently brought Moses to his deathbed. Moses, unable to circumcise his own son due to his sudden ill health, pressed his wife to circumcise their son. She reluctantly obeyed. But with the screams of her first child in her ears, she became disgusted with her husband  for what seemed to her his "crude religious convictions." Only then did God "let him go". Thus Moses survived.

God was not joking when He said:

Gen. 17:14 "And the uncircumcised..person shall be CUT OFF from his people: he has broken My Covenant."

So to answer your second half of the question..YES, they lost their salvation by NOT following Gods directions to THEM!

excerpts taken from "THE PLOT" by Bob Enyart

[Jujo]

My question was...what happened with their salvation if the Jewish people were NOT circumcised and you gave me an example of Abraham circumcising his son and this vs:

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

So...are you saying Abraham's salvation was in "doing" something? As in circumcision?

[Christine]

My question was...what happened with their salvation if the Jewish people were NOT circumcised and you gave me an example of Abraham circumcising his son and this vs:

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

So...are you saying Abraham's salvation was in "doing" something? As in circumcision?

The answer to the first part of your question  is found IN the scriptures that were quoted. If they didnt get circumcised, they were CUT OFF from being Gods people, because they broke the covenant.

The answer to your other question is in the context of the answer. God justified Abraham without works and then ADDED circumcision later. The post explained where this took place in scripture


Years LATER, however, God insisted that Abraham circumcise himself. Why? The Circumcision was a sign of the agreement between God and Abraham's descendants would become known as "people of the Circumcision."

Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

God had justified Abraham BEFORE circumcision. This shows that the Lord did not call for circumcision as a required MORAL deed for justification. God ADDED circumcision later (Rom. 4:11) as a sign to teach "symbolic truth" through Abrahams life.

If I am misunderstanding your question, or you have another answer, please provide scripture to show me where it is...thanks. 

It is always wise to see the context from scripture and the WHY is right there in the scriptures for all of us to see, so that we don't have to GUESS.

[Jujo]

I am glad you are still hanging in there with me.

Now, Abraham believed so he was saved. (Rom 4:3)

Then later circumcision was required (under the covenant as a sign of their agreement) or he would be cut off. (Gen 17:14)

Does "cut off" mean loss of salvation? This is what does not make sense to me.

[Christine]

I am glad you are still hanging in there with me.

Now, Abraham believed so he was saved. (Rom 4:3)

Then later circumcision was required (under the covenant as a sign of their agreement) or he would be cut off. (Gen 17:14)

Does "cut off" mean loss of salvation? This is what does not make sense to me.

Yer doin fine!!!

CUT OFF means just what it says. They would be cut off from being Gods special people. For the Jew, the situation was that they endured to the end and then they were saved. If they disobeyed Gods covenant commands...they were CUT OFF. It was a very serious thing to God that they were DISTINCT from others as they were to lead all other nations to Christ.

In todays economy, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit on the day we are saved thru believing Pauls gospel 2 Cor 15:1-4. No chance of being CUT OFF, as we are placed permanently into a NEW CREATION which is called , the church which is His BODY.

We are saved by GRACE alone. They were saved by GRACE plus works...in other words they had to DEMONSTRATE their trust in God by DOING what they agreed to do to be in a relationship with Him.

Does that help?

[Jujo]

So the Old Testament saints were NOT eternally saved?

Didn't Job, Abraham, Samuel, David KNOW they were saved? 

He only is my rock and my salvation; Ps 62

He also shall be my salvation Job 13:16

...he hath made with me an everlasting covenant...for this all my salvation...II Sam 23:5

[Christine]

So the Old Testament saints were NOT eternally saved?

Didn't Job, Abraham, Samuel, David KNOW they were saved? 

He only is my rock and my salvation; Ps 62

He also shall be my salvation Job 13:16

...he hath made with me an everlasting covenant...for this all my salvation...II Sam 23:5

The Jews were under a conditional program. "IF" you do this, then God will do that. Do you realize that there are two programs in the scriptures? One for the Nation Israel that was under the LAW, and one that is for we , the church, the Body of Christ, which is under GRACE?

They are clearly NOT the same.

The covenant with the Nation Israel IS everlasting, but it required FAITH in what God told them to DO. Not all Israel BELIEVED. God has SET ASIDE the Nation Israel and her covenant temporarily, and has ushered in the AGE of GRACE...where Jew and Gentile alike are not saved by works, but by GRACE alone thru faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone.

God is not dealing with Israel in her SPECIAL status during this INTERUPTION in her program...she is "lo ammi"  (not my people) and God has "concluded them ALL...both jew and gentile...in UNBELIEF so that He might have mercy upon all."

In the meantime...God is operating under the HOUSE RULES, or economy of "the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION of the Mystery which was KEPT SECRET since the world began"  Romans 16:25

When God again resumes His plan for his earthly people, their NEW Covenant will go into effect and all the promises God made to her as a NATION will be fulfilled.

God will RESUME His plan and program with the nation Israel AFTER the rapture of the church the Body of Christ.

Keep in mind that your Bible is laid out according to Eph. 2:11,12, 13 and verse 7.

Times PAST (God dealing with an earthly people/LAW/earthly promises and an earthly hope.)  Gen thru Acts

But NOW (God building a BODY of believers/ GRACE/heavenly promises and hope.)   Romans thru Philemon

Ages to COME (God RESUMING His purpose and plan for Israel/LAW/back to earthly promises.)  Hebrews thru Revelation


We are currently studying this in our ONLINE LIVE Bible Study on TUES/THURS nites at 7 PM Central.  Or you can order the STUDY BOOK entitled "THE PLOT" which goes thru this process in the scriptures step by step. Its a fascinating study.

I hope this helps you as you continue to study Gods Word "rightly divided."

[BOC560]

Let's take a look at the bible to find out:

"And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."    (Numbers 15:32-36)

It is jokingly said that God was the first computer programmer:  IF you obey my voice, THEN I will be your God and you will be My people, ELSE you will reap curses and destruction.
BOC560

[Jujo]

Hi Christine, me again...

So you are saying that a good Jew had to "do" something to be saved and "if" they didn't....well, it was bad news....maybe stoning?  Well, my question is still about their salvation.

We know Abraham was "righteous" (Paul tells us so)...but how about other good law abiding Jews...what if they sinned just before being run over by a chairot or something and died??  I don't believe that God would ever say "ah, you've done so much good work...your saved"  and base their salvation on their works.    But if your premise is correct...God would have to...  And then my next question would be to God...well then, when is enough good works ENOUGH??

God still had to look at their faith....he had to judge them by their faith....God added the law (of works) "because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made....Gal 3:19. The argument in Gal 3 concerns the real reason for the giving of the law; not to fulfill the promises to Abraham...but to ensure that salvation would come by faith.

God told them ...shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the Lord that it may be well with thee; Deut 6:18....this vs speaks of blessings...not salvation. Just like 8:1 ....shall ye observe to do, that ye may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers. For Blessings!  Salvation doesn't seem to be the issue here. Which is their conditional program that you mentioned.

I am aware of our program today of the Gospel of the Grace of God for us. My question still remains...what did Abraham or and OT saint have to do or believe to be saved...and it looks like (from what I have written above) that "faith" is the answer. Nothing more...nothing less.

[Christine]

My question still remains...what did Abraham or and OT saint have to do or believe to be saved...and it looks like (from what I have written above) that "faith" is the answer. Nothing more...nothing less.

Your question was answered FROM THE SCRIPTURES....

 Faith has always been the means by which God saved man, however, faith in faith is not what we we are talking about here. Faith MUST have an object. "Abraham believed , and it was counted unto him as righteousness;" but the ISSUE IS, "WHAT DID HE BELIEVE?" Did he believe what God told HIM?

While your answer has some value, it doesn't take into account "What saith the Scriptures" with regard to a difference in plan and purpose for the Nation ISRAEL as opposed to OUR program today.


To the man living under grace ALONE, God gives a "guarantee" (2 Cor. `1:22; 5:5; Eph 1:14) of "forgiveness" (Eph 1:7) for every sin (Col. 2:13)

However, the LAW does not guarantee the forgiveness of every sin. Thus Jesus spoke of the unforgiveable sin (Mt. 12:31; Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10) Also , under CIRCUMCISION, a man committed a presumptuous sin if he sinned presuming that the forgiveness was guaranteed. The presumptuous sinner might go through religious motions, but he lacked TRUE repentance. So a man living under the LAW could be "cut off" for breaking Gods "commandment.

How do I know this??? Am I giving an opinion, or does the Word tell us just that? Lets look:

Num. 15:30,31 " But the person who does anything presumptously, whether he is native born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. (Remember this is speaking about Israel here, and NOT the Body of Christ...we cannot be cut off from Christ but are made ONE with Him upon believing) The verse continues...."Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely CUT OFF, his guilt shall be upon him."  I don't know about YOU, but this sure says to ME that his salvation was KAPUT!


If an Israelite refused to circumcise, arguing that such a fleshly act is irrelevant to a relationship with a spiritual God, the Lord would have rejected that man.  (Sounds to ME like God was serious about this law keeping. )

Does the act of cutting off the foreskin have an inherent ability to save anyone? NO.

 However, God can and did require that act before He would give salvation to anyone under the Covenant of Circumcision.

We, in this dispensation, have the circumcision NOT made with hands. God cut away the body of sin that screamed out our guilt and "made us the righteousness of God in HIM" He no longer sees our sin, but sees us IN the righteous ONE who BORE those sins in His own body on a tree.


You seem to be having difficulty seeing and accepting that Israels program was one of faith PLUS works and NOT faith alone. However, a study of Israels program will show distinct and clear evidence that the law of Moses was definitely DIFFERENT than that which we are under in this age of GRACE.

STUDY will clear up the discrepencies very easily.

You haven't answered any of MY questions as to whether or not you see TWO programs and a DIFFERENCE between them in the scriptures. This is where you must begin.

Hope we have been helpful. We do have free material we can send to you for your own personal study. If you would like it...Please PM me with your mailing address.


P.S. Added Information:

Many Bible teachers try in vain to force the Covenant of GRACE onto the Covenant of Circumcision and into the teachings of the OLD TESTAMENT.

 However, Israel lived UNDER the LAW. For God "appointed a law in Israel" (Ps. 78:5)

Living under the Mosaic law meant something. It meant that God REQUIRED His people to have faith, to circumcise, to make an effort to keep the law, to repent when they failed, and to offer sacrifices for their sins.

These duties were NOT optional. They were ABSOLUTE requirements.

Did God save first century Jewish believers who were under the Covenant of Circumcision with grace thru the blood of Jesus Christ? Yes He did. However, did God ALSO require that they circumcise and keep the law? Yes He did.

The OLD TESTAMENT is not some big hallucination. 

God required that Israelites believe, and that they circumcise, and that they keep the law, and that they offer sacrifices.